How useful will Tradition be post patch?

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Strategy & Tips' started by The Tollan, Dec 10, 2010.

  1. The Tollan

    The Tollan Prince

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    How useful will these Tradition policies be after the changes from the patch?

    The bonus from Tradition will be 50% faster growth in the capital.

    The bonus from Landed Elite will be 2/3 reduction of culture requirement for border growth. Interestingly this change fits with the idea of a landed elite since it facilitates border growth.

    The bonus from Monarchy will be +1 gold per 2 population in the capital.

    It appears that Military Tradition and Discipline are both receiving nerfs as will the Liberty bonus and the bonus from Meritocracy. If one plays with the new default rules about selecting a policy once a new selection is available (no saving of policies) then how will the Tradition tree fare? Would it be of much use on large maps?

    How much will the anti-spawn close proximity cities across the globe changes impact the situation with the early policies? Relying more on large cities apparently will be relatively more useful than previously. Still, how useful are capital only bonuses? The bonuses definitely are better than before though.
     
  2. DaveMcW

    DaveMcW Deity

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    The maritime bonus means the capital will almost always be your biggest city, build the most expensive wonders, etc.

    I don't know how far they nerfed maritime, but if it's 50% or less, Tradition 1 is still very useful.
     
  3. The Tollan

    The Tollan Prince

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    Maritime cities will now provide:

    +2 food in the capital and no food elsewhere if they have "Friends" status

    +3 food in the capital and +1 food in other cities if they have "Allied" status
     
  4. neilkaz

    neilkaz King

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    Pardon me for asking how do you know these details? Is there a thread somewhere where the details have been released?

    That is a decent nerf for Maritimes. But will these bonus increase as they do now as you advance eras?

    Thx .. neilkaz ..
     
  5. biohazard72

    biohazard72 Prince

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    Since base Tradition is no longer horrible, and Honor and Liberty got nerfed, I think it actually might be pretty powerful. It may be worthwhile for the warmonger to grab Oligarchy and fight defensive wars until the AI army is wiped, then push for cities.
     
  6. The Tollan

    The Tollan Prince

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    I found the information today in posts by 2k Greg. The first post in both of these two threads below mention specific details on some of the changes. I was very pleased to see that the changes for several social policies and to Maritime city states were listed along with some other specific information in these threads.

    http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=402271

    http://forums.2kgames.com/showthread.php?99880-December-Patch-Full-Change-List


    These are the policy and city state changes:


    [POLICIES]
    •Landed Elite (Tradition Branch) now reduces culture cost of border growth by 2/3.
    •Monarchy (Tradition Branch) now provides +1 Gold per 2 pop in the Capital..
    •Liberty now provides a Settler training bonus to only the capital, and not every city.
    •Tradition now provides +50% growth in the capital.
    •Theocracy now reduces Unhappiness by 25% .
    •Reformation now gives a 10-turn GA.
    •Adopting Rationalism now gives a 4-turn GA.

    This line appeared under the section entitled City/Buildings section:

    •Reduced effects of Forbidden Palace and Meritocracy (Happiness per city).


    [CITY STATES]
    •Reduced bonuses from Maritime city-states - Friends: +2 food in capital, +0 food in other cities - Allies: +3 food in capital, +1 food in other cities
    •Only the first 3 units gifted to a city-state will earn Influence now.
    •Killing a barb inside a city-state's territory now gives a 5-turn buffer where there is no Influence intrusion penalty.



    A good question but I do not know the answer to it.
     
  7. The Tollan

    The Tollan Prince

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    Maritime city states will still boost the capital quite a bit so they might work quite well with the Tradition base 50% capital growth speed bonus.

    Actually, if the player leaves the city states options on the default setting then presence of more Maritime city states on large and huge sized maps could provide a large boost the capital and partially mitigate the dillution of capital bonuses (because one likely will have a larger empire on a larger map). Still, the mitigation may not necessarily outweigh the map size factor.

    Legalism will probably be relatively more useful after the patch (though it will not receive any direct changes from this patch). This is because of all the changes nerfing extreme forms of expansion and because the Maritime city states will give much more food to the capital than to other cities. I don't know whether it would be worth selecting or not though but at least it would be more useful than previously.

    Aristocracy seems to be a useful policy to begin with and Oligarchy can be good in many cases. Two potentially useful policies there. So hopefully with the new changes Tradition should be more interesting.

    I see the possibility of the strategy of acquiring all Tradition policies working at least fairly well in many game settings.

    I wonder if the gold acquired from the new version of Monarchy is modified by the capital specific gold increasing bonus from unlocking Commerce. Perhaps having a massive capital which functions as a commercial hub with some supporting cities may be a viable basis for a strategy?
     
  8. Bibor

    Bibor Doomsday Machine

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    Oh, I'm so excited by these changes to the capital. Now if only 50% of the time your initial units wouldn't spawn on no-seafood coasts with 1 hill and 10 no-freshwater plains.
     
  9. Slowpoke

    Slowpoke The Mad Modder

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    Basically worthless :( But it's a start!

    I've MASSIVELY boosted tradition in my mod (monarchy = 12 gold in capital, landed eilte = +100% growth, legalism = 1/2 unhappiness). And I still find I never take it. Nor has a single one of my playtesters!

    Tradition is a fine example of a branch where they need to avoid metrics and take sid meier's advice on doubling.

    And... oi... they BUFFED THEOCRACY?

    Well. Now we know what every good player is doing with his policies. Tank the first policy on a random branch, REX and time monuments so they get built in classical era, then get theocracy. That is literally the only possible strategy. Other than perhaps doing the same but also getting honor's great general.

    Meritocracy/FP nerfs are great though :D
     
  10. pi-r8

    pi-r8 Luddite

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    build a settler first, and buy a second settler when you can.
    Keep producing at least 1 settler every 20 turns, and then you can take your first policy in theocracy :)

    Yeah when I saw the boost they were giving to theocracy I couldn't believe it.
     
  11. Slowpoke

    Slowpoke The Mad Modder

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    I think the logic behind it was "People complained about horizontal growth, so we need more vertical growth!" Too bad theocracy was used for horizontal growth since more cities is still more happiness :p
     
  12. pi-r8

    pi-r8 Luddite

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    At least there's an interesting choice to be made between theocracy and rationalism.
     
  13. Slowpoke

    Slowpoke The Mad Modder

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    Nah, I think it's going to end up being always go theocracy, then use the leftover policies on freedom. Can you imagine large cities from theocracy with super specialists? Rediculous :(
     
  14. Escalate

    Escalate Chieftain

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    Rationalism + Freedom is still far superior for specialist focus empire. Combine with Statue of Liberty make it even better.

    Piety + Freedom = more specialist to run
    Rationalism + Freedom = more powerful specialist
     
  15. Slowpoke

    Slowpoke The Mad Modder

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    yeah but with no saving of policies, you gotta use those early policies for something. Freedom is superior to rationalism, since you get the happiness with the first policy.

    Besices, with the maritime nerfs, people will have to start farming river tiles, so extra population might even be necessary to feed the specialists.
     
  16. alpaca

    alpaca King of Ungulates

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    The tradition base policy is quite strong now, I would argue it is usually a bigger bonus than Liberty even if all you do is building settlers. With the new Maritime bonuses you will have tons of food surplus in the capital, and Tradition adds 50% to that.

    With Oligarchy remaining arguably the strongest military policy and Landed Elite now being useful if you don't ICS, Tradition actually sounds like it could become at least useful.

    Still depends on how much they nerf Meritocracy, of course.

    Edit: By the way, does Theocracy now generate 1.25 happiness if you have a Colosseum in a size 5 city? Sure sounds like it.
     
  17. Bibor

    Bibor Doomsday Machine

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    If you guys remember, I was always a vocal Piety fan (unlike IRL lol). I almost always pick Piety in my games, even if going Liberty first for large empires.

    - 1:c5happy: citizen for every 5
    - suprlus :c5happy: pouring into culture
    - "On demand" golden age
    - "On demand" two free policies

    Now with the change to 1:c5happy: citizen for every 4 it becomes even more attractive.

    In my latest game I combined Liberty with Piety (10 or so own cities), added Forbidden palace, and was never below 20:c5happy: (and usually in the 40s).
     
  18. alpaca

    alpaca King of Ungulates

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    Compare to Rationalism, with:

    - "On demand" Golden Age for opening the tree
    - "On demand" 100+ research points by running more specialists
    - +1 science per trade post if you have any
    - "On demand" 2 free techs
    - +1 happiness per city
    - +15% science

    I would say it depends on the game. Sure, Theocracy is probably the best happiness policy out there but you sacrifice a lot of research power for it, especially the two free techs that can be used for a beeline to something great hurt quite significantly. The two free policies aren't very useful because you only really get one for free (the other is Reformation) and the one you get is the pretty mediocre "put half your happiness into culture".

    If you want to win fast, Rationalism is certainly better. If you want to go out of the game strong, Piety might be the better choice.
     
  19. Bibor

    Bibor Doomsday Machine

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    I completely agree with you, except on one point which you forgot: The full Rationalism tree can be (in a decent time-frame) gained only by having a very small core of non-puppet cities, while the full Piety tree can be gained even if you plan for a large non-puppet empire simply by delaying the initial expansion. It's not unusual for me to complete Piety and invest 2 points into Honor by the time I get longswordsmen.

    Rationalism has a fantastic synergy with Freedom for a specialist-oriented economy, while I find Piety to be more flexible if I marginalize specialists, especially if I'm militaristic.
     
  20. Fabien

    Fabien Warlord

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    Well, I think it the strength of Tradition will also depend upon how much they changed the forumla for city growth at higher levels. If they reduced the amount of food needed by quite a lot you'll get some very strong opening with tradition if you have enough food nearby (Heavy Fish starts will be awesome for this). We'll have to see, especially how this will work out with specialists boosted by freedom (if this works at all).

    Maybe we'll even see some openings with tradition + Stongehenge (Which is a very good wonder, atleast I feel that way ;)).
     

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