Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Yeosol, Apr 11, 2009.
Do you think a free promotion for Cavalry for IMP would be over powered?
1. Why just for Calvary?
2. Depends what promotion.
Maybe Protective cities should have some kind of heal bonus for units?
Or have Woodlands/Hills defense bonuses added onto the City Defense... Or make it Drill II and not just Drill I.
The problem with Protective is that it sucks for the human, while in the AI's hands Protective is already plenty strong.
The AI pillages like crazy, whereas humans don't. This is because the AI loves to keep gigantic stacks of units in their cities at all times, so pillaging isn't going to help much.
Sitting Bull seems to be especially notorious for this.
He once took out a bunch of my SAM Infantry with a bunch of medieval units. When I say a bunch, I mean there was no end in sight.
How many people who think PRO sucks royally (instead of merely being on the weak side) are playing at the limit of their ability?
Using the discounts for overflow cash can be quite powerful if we don't consider this blatant bug abuse.
In the face of superior opponents, having them throw their units against your fortified cities is a great equaliser.
On the offense, the most effective units are often those who can damage multiple opponents - i.e. mounted and siege units, neither of which gets any free promotions from a trait. On the defense, PRO can make quite a difference... especially when facing a stack of 200 obsolete units.
Castles are fairly cheap for what they do if we can postpone Economics for a while... but doing so is only attractive if we can't pick up the free Merchant with ease.
Likewise, IMP can be an invaluable trait for securing land. Yes, EXP might normally be better for getting a new city to a point where it's actually useful... but IMP shines when it comes to salvage otherwise horrible situations:
Starts where we have little to do for a worker, but can scrape together 4 hammers for example, or being boxed in by high-level AIs where our priority isn't getting good cities, but claiming any land we can before someone else does.
How about not limiting Protective to a military trait? Add something economic that reflects a Protectionist mindset. This would be very appropriate for leaders like Wang Kong and Toku. Maybe a domestic trade bonus?
But Toku doesn't trade.
Also, the nice thing with Protective is that when you capture cities, your former attackers can easily become defenders of the city.
Half price castles, bunkers and half price stables are enough to make protective OK....could also get double speed chiken itza..like spiritual does for Christo redentor.
Imperialistic is Ok as it is....but what should be removed is the double rate gg generation within your borders (with any civ)...that would make imperialistic even better.
Protective : Archer and Gunpowder starts with Drill II (no city guard, I hate that promo, I never get protective leaders because of that...), cheaper walls+castle+Security bureau.
City guard is useless after siege engines while drill just shines on (not vs immune to first strike units but you can't have it all, can you?)
I don't think walls should give EP, they rather should elevate mission cost in this particular city.
You could increase GG inside cultural borders say 50% for protective for a change. That shouldn't be a big boost for the AI. But might give an edge to the human on higher levels or in MP ;-)
I wonder if the XML for the Security Bureau's defense against espionage is percentage-based. If so, then this is an easy mod.
Yea that would be a neat addition for walls, making them more useful. I've thought about drill2 for protective but it makes certain UU's a little too powerful. Maybe instead a boost to Drill1! It's such a garbage promotion, (The worst single promotion?) Even just changing it from '1 FS chance' to '1 FS'.
The Drill promotion line gets a bad rap. I'd say the potential value of Drill III/IV (with their collateral damage reduction and ability to kill before being touched) offset the relative meekness of Drill I.
It is all or nothing for the change of the spy detection percentage for the presence of a friendly spy/Security Bureau in the tile.
Bhruic explains it all here.
I think Protective unit bonuses are great, but I think most people's complaint is that walls & castle production bonuses don't directly help protect the country side - which is essential to the economy. If I wanted to tweak Protective, I'd beef up Forts. Give Protective leaders' double Fort production and/or give an extra for tiles in a BFC w/a Fort. That way PRO leaders would line their borders with forts, kind of like a Hadrian's wall in Britain. It might even give rise to a Fort-Economy .
Nooo! Don't take away Drill I!
To those who suggested Pro should get drill 2 instead of drill 1+ CG1, Drill 2 would be overpowered, seriously.
If you thought Protective AIs were annoying now, wait until you see how annoying it is attacking their D4 archers and longbows turn after turn.
I personally don't think any change is needed for Protective (nor Imperialistic) but if a change were to be made it should be something building-related. +1 for walls sounds ok but a bit underwhelming. Double production speed of Security Bureaus sounds good. Alternatively, the double speed bunkers and bomb shelters sounds reasonable as a small added bonus to Protective.
I'll just give my $.02... posted this in a different thread.
Actually, better to merge Drill I+II into Drill I. I hate the fact that there is a single 4line promotion... or fix the drill line in general into something that is more reliable.
Give half price walls, castles, forts, bomb shelters, nuke bunkers..
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