How would YOU design Israel in Civ 7 if allowed?(Made this because others are also)

Duke William of Normandy

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(I want to be like others, so I'm doing this to fit in.)

Alright, let's talk about one of the more controversial Civilizations that could appear. No, we'll not be talking about Modern Israel, only Ancient Israel.

Here are two ideas for Israel I made two years ago to get us started.

Spoiler :

David of the Israelite Empire

Spoiler :

Leader Ability: The Psalms
Great Works of Writing provide +3 Faith and +3 culture. Holy Site Buildings provide Great Writer points equal to their Great Prophet point output.

Civilization Ability: Ten Commandments
Entering a Golden Age provides a free Relic, as well as Faith per turn equal to the amount of Era Score gained in that Era.
Holy Site Buildings gain an extra Relic slot and provide Culture equal to their intristic Faith output.

Unique Unit: Maccabee
Israelite Unique Classical Era Melee Unit that replaces Swordsman.
Can be purchased with Faith. +4 Combat Strength and +1 Movement Point if trained in a City with a Holy Site.
Requires 10 Iron to train.

Production Cost: 110

Gold Cost: 440

Faith Cost: 220

Faith Maintenance: 3

Movement Points: 2

Melee Strength: 39

Sight Range: 2

Unique Infrastructure: Yeshiva
Israelite Unique Building that replaces the Library.
All Specialists in this City provide +1 Faith. -20% Cost to purchase Religious Units in this City.
Provides Great Writer and Great Prophet points, as well as +2 Slots of Great Works of Writing.

Production Cost: 80

+2 Faith

+2 Science

+1 Great Scientist Point

+1 Great Writer Point

+1 Great Prophet Point

+2 Slots of Great Works of Writing

Leader Agenda: Shepherd King
Collects as many Relics and Great Works of Writing as possible. Likes Civilizations that have many Relics and Great Works of Writing, and dislikes those who do not have Relics or Great Works of Writing.

Greeting: Ah, you are finally here. I am David, King of Israel, my crown granted to me by Hashem. I invite you to share in His grace.

Agenda Approval: Adonai hears your prayers and blesses you tenfold for them. Your praises to Him are as honey to the ears.

Agenda Disapproval: I beseech Adonai to free me of your noise. Your “psalms” are but incessant wailing and mourning!

Attacked: Hashem is our shield, and He will not fail to protect us as He has for generations.

Declares War on You: Hashem is the king of all lands, even yours. Those lands, however, will soon be mine.

Defeated: You may have subdued my kingdom, but Adonai shall continue to watch over His scattered people. This I swear on.


Joshua of the Israelite Empire

Spoiler :

Leader Ability: The Promised Land
Military Units adjacent to Israelite Apostles deal full Damage when attacking Cities and gain +7 Combat Strength when defending against City Center and Encampment Attacks.
Conquered Cities on Israel’s Home Continent gain Food and Culture equal to 20% of their intristic Faith output.

Leader Agenda: Walls of Jericho
Will try to conquer every Foreign City on his Home Continent. Dislikes Civilizations that settle on his Home Continent and likes those who don’t have Cities on his Home Continent.

Greeting: All of Israel’s lands that can be named were given to us by Hashem in his mercy. I, Joshua, son of Nun, welcome you to see Israel’s, and by extension Hashem’s, glory.

Agenda Approval: May many blessings be showered, upon you and your people, wise ruler. For even you of a heathen nation obeys the will of Adonai to let us live in peace.

Agenda Disapproval: This land of milk and honey was promised to us by Hashem, so do not deceive yourself into thinking that you are safe from being conquered by us.

Attacked: I call upon you, oh mighty Hashem, in this time of war! I beseech you to send ten-thousand flaming chariots or a thunderous rain of hail to subdue our foes.

Declares War on You: Just as the cities of Jericho, Ai, and Hebron fell before our might, so too shall your nation tremble before Adonai’s might.

Defeated: What sins did we commit, oh Adonai, that you deliver us into the hands of our enemies? What sins...?

 
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Mine
Underlying theme: Religious
Civ ability: Promised Land
Leader: Solomon (Wiseman King)
UU: (Not really easy to think of. Old Israelite military is heavily based on Old Egyptians. AFAIK They might used Khopesh sicke swords too!)
- (might be) Sicarians OR Zealots (Religious buff but DOES NOT convert enemy city after winning an assault)
 

Zaarin

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Leader: Hezekiah: A King Beyond Compare: All foreign religions suffer a 75% religious pressure penalty on Judean cities; religious structures grant Gold, Food, and Culture equal to half their Faith yield. Can build the Ebenezer unique improvement.
Ebenezer: +2 Faith, +1 Culture; +1 Faith, +1 Culture to every adjacent Farm, Pasture, or Plantation. Cannot be built adjacent to another Ebenezer.
Civ Ability: The Lord Is My Shepard: Pastures produce +2 Faith and +2 Food; +5 combat strength when fighting units of other religions within your borders.
Unique District: Zion Temple: Unique Holy Site district, must be built on a Hill adjacent a Mountain; can only be built once per empire; automatically converts all cities founded by the parent civ, emanates 500% religious pressure on Judean cities but only 75% on non-Judean cities; instead of adjacency bonuses it yields a flat +8 Faith.
Unique Unit: ...

I much prefer Hezekiah as a leader to David or Solomon. Hezekiah's Judah is a strong defender with an extremely powerful Faith game powered by its super-Holy Site that can only be built once, by Pastures, and by the Ebenezer (stone of remembrance) unique improvement. It also designed to be a very agrarian civilization with fewer districts and more improvements.

I'm a bit at a loss about the UU, though. Israel/Judah's warfare wasn't particularly distinctive. I was tempted for a Maqabbi/Maccabee, but an aggressive shock troop doesn't fit thematically. I also considered a Slinger-replacement for the memes, but honestly, David and Goliath aside, there was nothing exceptional about Israel's slingers. Israel adopted chariot warfare from the Philistines or Hittites late in its existence, much to the dismay of the prophets, but I'm not sure that's much of a UU. Honestly, if we could find some way to make a kohen a unique unit that would be ideal.
 
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Leader: Hezekiah: A King Beyond Compare: All foreign religions suffer a 75% religious pressure penalty on Judean cities; religious structures grant Gold, Food, and Culture equal to half their Faith yield. Can build the Ebenezer unique improvement.
Ebenezer: +2 Faith, +1 Culture; +1 Faith, +1 Culture to every adjacent Farm, Pasture, or Plantation. Cannot be built adjacent to another Ebenezer.
Civ Ability: The Lord Is My Shepard: Pastures produce +2 Faith and +2 Food; +5 combat strength when fighting units of other religions within your borders.
.

Did the earliest iterations of Judaism a 'pastoral religion'?
 
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Civ Ability: The Lord Is My Shepard: Pastures produce +2 Faith and +2 Food; +5 combat strength when fighting units of other religions within your borders.
I love this idea.

I'm a bit at a loss about the UU, though. Israel/Judah's warfare wasn't particularly distinctive. I was tempted for a Maqabbi/Maccabee, but an aggressive shock troop doesn't fit thematically. I also considered a Slinger-replacement for the memes, but honestly, David and Goliath aside, there was nothing exceptional about Israel's slingers. Israel adopted chariot warfare from the Philistines or Hittites late in its existence, much to the dismay of the prophets, but I'm not sure that's much of a UU. Honestly, if we could find some way to make a kohen a unique unit that would be ideal.
I think I'd go for the Maccabee personally just because there aren't really a bunch of other options. Maybe you can only get a limited amount and when one dies they produce a relic?
More powerful slingers would be interesting but that could just be a King David thing.

For the leader I like the way Mansa Musa plays so I'm more inclined to want to go for King Solomon who could use faith and gold to purchase things easily.

The unique infrastructure I'm torn on something either religious, or educational.

Did the earliest iterations of Judaism a 'pastoral religion'?
Many lived a pastoral lifestyle, including David before he became king. Nothing defines Judaism as being pastoral though.
 

Zaarin

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Did the earliest iterations of Judaism a 'pastoral religion'?
I'm not really sure what you mean by a pastoral religion, but the Israelites were an overwhelmingly pastoral society. The majority of Israelites either tended flocks or vineyards; a smaller number were engaged in crop or herd agriculture.

I think I'd go for the Maccabee personally just because there aren't really a bunch of other options. Maybe you can only get a limited amount and when one dies they produce a relic?
No, no, no. Relics are verboten in Judaism. "Thou shalt not have any gods before me. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven images." :p Still, the idea of limited Maccabees could work. You get invaded so you unleash your berserkers. :p

The unique infrastructure I'm torn on something either religious, or educational.
There was nothing extraordinary about Hebrew culture or science, but there was (and is) something extraordinary about the Hebrew Scriptures and religion. It wouldn't be until late Antiquity that the Jewish diaspora would develop an exceptional educational system to ensure all Jewish males were competent to read and interpret the Scriptures.
 
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No, no, no. Relics are verboten in Judaism. "Thou shalt not have any gods before me. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven images." :p Still, the idea of limited Maccabees could work. You get invaded so you unleash your berserkers. :p
I was thinking of them as basically martyrs from combat, which they were seen historically, as opposed to the usual martyrs coming from religious figures.
Also the Ark of the Covenant is a relic in the game, so? :dunno:

There was nothing extraordinary about Hebrew culture or science, but there was (and is) something extraordinary about the Hebrew Scriptures and religion. It wouldn't be until late Antiquity that the Jewish diaspora would develop an exceptional educational system to ensure all Jewish males were competent to read and interpret the Scriptures.
Yeah if they received anything educational it would be a library replacement, like @Duke William of Normandy said, which would still be religious in nature.
 

Zaarin

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Also the Ark of the Covenant is a relic in the game, so? :dunno:
A lot of the in-game relics are...odd. The devs seem to use the term to cover any kind of religious object: relics, holy artifacts, idols...Still, centering a religion on sacred objects when that religion forbids 99% of sacred objects seems a little...tone deaf. I do get the idea you were going for; it just doesn't feel right to me.
 

Saint Leibowitz

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Maccabees could have an ability to Spread Religion, but only in your own cities, and maybe have an attack bonus in Israelite land. Would fit their historic role pretty well and fit into a general theme of Israel as religious and defensive.
 

mitsho

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I would call them "the Hebrews" though if you want to focus on the ancient part of their history. That seems less controversial, no?

I hope that the design of Civ7 makes Religion a bit more distinct from the Civilization Designs themselves so that you don't have to be "religious" with Israel/the Hebrews. Otherwise, their design is rather straightforward, as shown in the excellent examples here.
 

Zaarin

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I would call them "the Hebrews" though if you want to focus on the ancient part of their history. That seems less controversial, no?
Or just call them Judah or Samaria, depending on which leader you choose.

I hope that the design of Civ7 makes Religion a bit more distinct from the Civilization Designs themselves so that you don't have to be "religious" with Israel/the Hebrews.
TBH Judaism is the only reason to include them; Israel/Judah/Samaria was never politically the predominant civ of the region--Phoenicia and Philistia both have better political arguments for inclusion. So I can't imagine any Israelite/Jewish/Samaritan civ being anything but hyper-religious, defensive, and insular. Since I hope to see Religious Victory not return in Civ7, I'd hope to see such a civ use religion as a pathway to other victories rather than a religious victory civ, especially since Judaism was rather reluctant about accepting converts.

RE:religion being distinct from the civilization, I 100% agree.
 
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I would call them "the Hebrews" though if you want to focus on the ancient part of their history. That seems less controversial, no?
I do agree on calling them "the Hebrews" would be better, and seem less controversial, as unfortunate as that sounds.

I hope that the design of Civ7 makes Religion a bit more distinct from the Civilization Designs themselves so that you don't have to be "religious" with Israel/the Hebrews. Otherwise, their design is rather straightforward, as shown in the excellent examples here.
How would one play Israel/ the Hebrews without a religious design or focus? :confused:

As what @Zaarin said above. Them founding Judaism and being a forerunner to the other Abrahamic religions as well is the only reason to include them.
 

mitsho

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TBH Judaism is the only reason to include them; Israel/Judah/Samaria was never politically the predominant civ of the region--Phoenicia and Philistia both have better political arguments for inclusion.

Rule of cool, name recognition or just because the Devs want them? All of them place them over the Philistines or Phoenicia. ;-) That may not be a very historiographical approach, but in the end, we are still dealing with a game here.

Agree on everything else you said though - and also that other civs were bigger players in their time and region.

How would one play Israel/ the Hebrews without a religious design or focus? :confused:

By reaching out to other parts of their history against the wishes of the Opening post for one. But you can for example include the Maccabees without a religious bonus. Of course, most of their elements will be taken from the biblical stories, but you can disconnect that from faith - if you want to of course and if it makes sense gameplay wise.
 

Zaarin

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Rule of cool, name recognition or just because the Devs want them? All of them place them over the Philistines or Phoenicia. ;-) That may not be a very historiographical approach, but in the end, we are still dealing with a game here.
I mean, rule of cool is very subjective. Despite being a decidedly Judaizing Christian, I can't say the Jews are cooler than the Phoenicians, who, in my opinion, are one of the most fascinating cultures in history. ;) As for name recognition, I don't think either the Philistines or Phoenicians would be very far behind the Jews. Philistine has become a generic insult for someone who doesn't like art (rather unfairly--I think we should call them Romans instead :p ), plus anyone who has even a passing familiarity with the Bible--which is most Westerners--is familiar with the Philistines, even if they're not aware of the archaeological people who bore that name. Most educated people will know the Phoenicians for their alphabet and their purple dye; anyone with even a passing familiarity with history will be familiar with their colony Carthage.

Still, my point stands: the Hebrews'/Jews' historical significance was in founding the most influential religion in world history. There are really only two ways to design a Hebrew civ: agrarian (which really isn't that extraordinary, especially since Canaan didn't have a particularly impressive population density compared to Egypt or Mesopotamia) or religious; I included elements of both in my design but with a focus on religion. You could make an argument for a commercial Samaria, but I don't think anyone would be very satisfied with Samaria rather than Judah or Israel--and Samaria loses hands down the commercial argument vis-à-vis Phoenicia.
 

Saint Leibowitz

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Yeah, agreed -- ancient Israel's historical impact (via not only Judaism, but its influence on Christianity and Islam as well) is massive, and its absence in prior games is actually kind of glaring. I realize it gets omitted for political reasons to dodge the current controversy but... that's not a very good excuse, IMO. It's a similar kind of unprincipled exception as Tibet getting routinely vetoed to avoid trouble with China.
 
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Rule of cool, name recognition or just because the Devs want them? All of them place them over the Philistines or Phoenicia. ;-) That may not be a very historiographical approach, but in the end, we are still dealing with a game here.

Agree on everything else you said though - and also that other civs were bigger players in their time and region.
Yeah even though I would want Israel that doesn't mean I wouldn't want Phoenicia/Carthage either, which deserve their place in the game.

By reaching out to other parts of their history against the wishes of the Opening post for one. But you can for example include the Maccabees without a religious bonus. Of course, most of their elements will be taken from the biblical stories, but you can disconnect that from faith - if you want to of course and if it makes sense gameplay wise.
It's really hard for me to imagine any other way to play them considering as you mentioned most of their design elements will be taken from their religious texts. The matter of fact is Judaism is so tied to their history, culture, way of life that it's hard for me to think of not including it in some way. Sure maybe the UU or the unique infrastructure doesn't but I definitely can't see a civ ability that doesn't deal with faith.
 

Zaarin

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Sure maybe the UU or the unique infrastructure doesn't but I definitely can't see a civ ability that doesn't deal with faith.
Even as far as unique infrastructure goes, I can't think of anything that isn't somehow related to Judaism except maybe a Jewish Deli (oof, can we not?): the Temple Mount, Synagogue, Yeshiva, Beth Midrash, Chabad--all of them are in some way related to Judaism.
 
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Even as far as unique infrastructure goes, I can't think of anything that isn't somehow related to Judaism except maybe a Jewish Deli (oof, can we not?): the Temple Mount, Synagogue, Yeshiva, Beth Midrash, Chabad--all of them are in some way related to Judaism.
I thought we were talking about Ancient Israel, not the East Coast of the U.S.? :lol: :mischief:

I was thinking of either a Yeshiva or Beth Midrash as a library replacement which could possibly produce culture, through Great Works, as well as science and not directly yield any faith. But you are right though of course historically it would still be related to their religion.
 

Zaarin

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I was thinking a Yeshiva as a library replacement could produce culture, through Great Works, as well as science and not directly yield any faith. But you are right though of course historically it would still be related to their religion.
A Yeshiva is a seminary for studying the Talmud, Torah, and halakha and should be a University replacement that yields Faith and Culture. A Library replacement should be a Midrash, and since the Midrash is explicitly for the study of the Torah it should primarily yield Faith.

I thought we were talking about Ancient Israel, not the East Coast of the U.S.:lol: :mischief:
CORPORATE: We need you to find the difference between these two pictures.
PURITANS: They're the same picture.
:mischief:
 

Geatshead98

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(I want to be like others, so I'm doing this to fit in.)

Alright, let's talk about one of the more controversial Civilizations that could appear. No, we'll not be talking about Modern Israel, only Ancient Israel.

Here are two ideas for Israel I made two years ago to get us started.

Spoiler :

David of the Israelite Empire

Spoiler :

Leader Ability: The Psalms
Great Works of Writing provide +3 Faith and +3 culture. Holy Site Buildings provide Great Writer points equal to their Great Prophet point output.

Civilization Ability: Ten Commandments
Entering a Golden Age provides a free Relic, as well as Faith per turn equal to the amount of Era Score gained in that Era.
Holy Site Buildings gain an extra Relic slot and provide Culture equal to their intristic Faith output.

Unique Unit: Maccabee
Israelite Unique Classical Era Melee Unit that replaces Swordsman.
Can be purchased with Faith. +4 Combat Strength and +1 Movement Point if trained in a City with a Holy Site.
Requires 10 Iron to train.

Production Cost: 110

Gold Cost: 440

Faith Cost: 220

Faith Maintenance: 3

Movement Points: 2

Melee Strength: 39

Sight Range: 2

Unique Infrastructure: Yeshiva
Israelite Unique Building that replaces the Library.
All Specialists in this City provide +1 Faith. -20% Cost to purchase Religious Units in this City.
Provides Great Writer and Great Prophet points, as well as +2 Slots of Great Works of Writing.

Production Cost: 80

+2 Faith

+2 Science

+1 Great Scientist Point

+1 Great Writer Point

+1 Great Prophet Point

+2 Slots of Great Works of Writing

Leader Agenda: Shepherd King
Collects as many Relics and Great Works of Writing as possible. Likes Civilizations that have many Relics and Great Works of Writing, and dislikes those who do not have Relics or Great Works of Writing.

Greeting: Ah, you are finally here. I am David, King of Israel, my crown granted to me by Hashem. I invite you to share in His grace.

Agenda Approval: Adonai hears your prayers and blesses you tenfold for them. Your praises to Him are as honey to the ears.

Agenda Disapproval: I beseech Adonai to free me of your noise. Your “psalms” are but incessant wailing and mourning!

Attacked: Hashem is our shield, and He will not fail to protect us as He has for generations.

Declares War on You: Hashem is the king of all lands, even yours. Those lands, however, will soon be mine.

Defeated: You may have subdued my kingdom, but Adonai shall continue to watch over His scattered people. This I swear on.


Joshua of the Israelite Empire

Spoiler :

Leader Ability: The Promised Land
Military Units adjacent to Israelite Apostles deal full Damage when attacking Cities and gain +7 Combat Strength when defending against City Center and Encampment Attacks.
Conquered Cities on Israel’s Home Continent gain Food and Culture equal to 20% of their intristic Faith output.

Leader Agenda: Walls of Jericho
Will try to conquer every Foreign City on his Home Continent. Dislikes Civilizations that settle on his Home Continent and likes those who don’t have Cities on his Home Continent.

Greeting: All of Israel’s lands that can be named were given to us by Hashem in his mercy. I, Joshua, son of Nun, welcome you to see Israel’s, and by extension Hashem’s, glory.

Agenda Approval: May many blessings be showered, upon you and your people, wise ruler. For even you of a heathen nation obeys the will of Adonai to let us live in peace.

Agenda Disapproval: This land of milk and honey was promised to us by Hashem, so do not deceive yourself into thinking that you are safe from being conquered by us.

Attacked: I call upon you, oh mighty Hashem, in this time of war! I beseech you to send ten-thousand flaming chariots or a thunderous rain of hail to subdue our foes.

Declares War on You: Just as the cities of Jericho, Ai, and Hebron fell before our might, so too shall your nation tremble before Adonai’s might.

Defeated: What sins did we commit, oh Adonai, that you deliver us into the hands of our enemies? What sins...?

Love the idea of the Kingdom of Israel in Civilization. Having Judaism with a civ that makes sense rather than everyone's favourite merchant angry girlfriend does fit the bill, Essentially a more aggressive Georgia.
 
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