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How would you implement espionage or religion?

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by Haig, Oct 20, 2010.

  1. Haig

    Haig Deity

    Aug 3, 2010
    I really miss these two back, I feel there's not enough things to do in Civ V currently.

    Still, espionage and religion aren't perfect in Civ IV, but I've been thinking how I would like to see them in Civ V.

    There would be maybe like counter-intelligence, that would prevent other nations' esp. activity and it would collect data from other nations, and by an espionage slider I could invest gold into it. Maybe a too strict secret police would cause unhappiness?

    There would be also an "import" version of this, where I could make missions into city-states and other civs.
    But instead of moving the spy around myself I think it should be more about choosing a city-state or nation and what missions I would wan't to do there.
    I'm thinking about how CIA and KGB were converting small banana republics in the sixties and planting puppet rulers etc. so espionage would bring more interacting to city-states, which need more versatily anyway.

    I think a Civ IV system with the Apostolic votes and spreading are pretty nice, but maybe after middle ages religion should lose much of it's power. On the other hand, there are still holy wars going on I guess, but whatever suits game mechanics..
  2. Becephalus

    Becephalus King

    Nov 30, 2005
    A) I hated espionage. Thought it was completely a waste, unbalanced, and only there to help make the expansion look less like a patch.

    B) Religion- I would love a system wher at say certain set dates religions are founded somewhere in the world. It could be a random roll based on how much culture a city is putting out. So if there are 20 cities making 1,1,2,1,2,1,1,1,1,3,1,1,1,1,1,2,3 or whatever the game would roll like a d40 and decide which city got the foundation.

    This would help eliminate some of the gamey maximizing I think the early game suffers from and help people have a more matter of fact organic approach to playing.

    As for the effect of religion, I think it should spread independent of player actions, and towns with state religion could provide +1 happiness for each cultural building.

    Just an idea.

    I would get rid of the diplomatic aspects, at least at the start.
  3. Rydin_Nurdy

    Rydin_Nurdy Chieftain

    Oct 20, 2010
    Bel Air, MD
    Couldn't agree more. I remember trying to found every religion in one game and got all but one. Religion in my eyes isn't triggered by just one event so it should be more random.
  4. MRM

    MRM Prince

    Sep 30, 2005
    Hamburg, Germany
    I would add disadvantages for having multiple religions in one city/ in one civ as well, so this would not be a problem anymore.

    Different Religions in different parts of your civ may trigger a civil war, which split your civ.

    Different Religions in one City may trigger unrest, at least before freedom of religion or something like this is active. Unrest reduce production and increasy unhappiness.

    This way, rushing for as many religions as possible would not be attractiv anymore.

    Maybe a great prophet should found a religion, not a certain tech. IMO more realistic.

    Espionage - IMO it was to mighty in Civ 4. It could be easily exploited by humans. Maybe it should only gather information about other civs you may not get otherwise.
  5. UWHabs

    UWHabs Deity

    Oct 10, 2008
    Religion I think makes perfect sense to play with city-state "diplomacy."

    Have it founded randomly at certain dates. It spreads all naturally. You have a missionary to spread it, and have some religious buildings like in civ4. Every now and then, city states might team up in "holy wars", or ask that you spread their religion to multiple cities or a certain percent of your empire. You gain certain influence the more you spread their religion to your cities, and lose influence over them if you don't spread their religion. Have the religion of a city not be binary "they have it or not", but as a % (like civ 4 civ culture in a city). It will naturally ebb and flow, so if you send multiple buddhist missionaries to a city, it will continue to grow buddhism in that city. If you don't send missionaries, people fall out of favour.

    Throw on an AP-type structure if they want, but NO religious victory. It would just have certain bonuses or drawbacks that come up every now and then.

    Have it with 0 effect between the actual players in the game. Or maybe have it as a minor diplo modifiers (ie. so it matters, but really not any more than being close to a neighbour).

    So, the net effect of religion is marginal influence gains. It has very little diplomatic aspects. You can mostly ignore religion and it won't cost you, but you can't simply win the game by playing all religiously. That would add some flavour, but not be the overriding factor (like it was in civ 4).
  6. Horizons

    Horizons Needing fed again!

    Feb 22, 2007
    Spy and diplomat units FTW :) Including the possibility of bribing enemy units or are least city state units :)
  7. Thedrin

    Thedrin Deity

    Jan 24, 2002
    Religion can provide a nice bit of flavour to the game, but I think it had much too big an impact in CivIV. I'd scale some of the effects back.

    1) Random founding of religions. I'd still tie it to technologies but:
    - randomise the prerequisite technology with the technologies being chosen at the start of each game,
    - keep prerequisite technologies hidden so you can't beeline for a religion
    - restrict the eras religions can be founded. 1 at most (if at all) in the industrial era and later. None in the ancient era to reduce the impact of these early game events
    - religion isn't founded in a city belonging to the civ that researches the technology, but by a city of that civ or any city it can trade with.

    2) Diplomacy:
    - No affect. CivIV seriously overplayed the affects of religion in political affairs.

    3) Conversions:
    - Passive spread of religions only. No missionaries.
    - The CivIV missionaries reminded me a lot of CivII caravans. Lots of benefits that could only be accessed through extra management. CivIV's sytem for trade routes (largely automated) was far superior and I'd like to see the spread of religions go a similar way.
    - CivIV automated spread was very slow so a faster mechanism would be required. On the other hand, the benefits of religions should be less than they were in CivIV, so a fast religion spread wouldn't be as neccesary as it was in CivIV.

    4) Internal Affairs:
    - Religion should affect the internal dynamics of your empire. I had written up a few ideas but I've deleted them since they're rough and I've given it less thought than the other aspects.
  8. Thedrin

    Thedrin Deity

    Jan 24, 2002

    No spy or diplomat units. At all. This is for the same reason as my dislike of missionaries in CivIV and caravans in CivII. Building and moving these units is extra unnecessary management. All of the benefits of spies and diplomats can be achieved through an espionage screen similar to that used in CivIV.

    No technology stealing. But when researching a technology, you receive a research boost related to the number of civs with the technology that you have a positive espionage points against, and related to the magnitude of these positive espionage points.

    All destructive espionage acts conducted in peace time - poisoning water supply, destroying city buildings, destroying production, destroying improvements and any I've forgotten - should come with immediate and severe negative consequences. The victim should always have the opportunity to declare war without incurring a negative diplomacy modifier with other civs (assuming you're not already at war). and the aggressor should always receive negative diplomacy modifiers from all civs.

    The cost of conducting espionage missions during war time should be greater than during peace time.
  9. Namel

    Namel Chieftain

    Sep 27, 2010

    -I like random founding of religions and random spreading.
    -Each religion in the city should take 10% tithe of science, production and gold output of the city they have spread in. This reflects amount of money that is used to pay priests, for building of religious buildings and for effect that religions tend to have to innovation.
    -Half of production that religions take would be used for building random religious buildings that increase happiness and culture. Half would be wasted.
    -Each religion after first in city would create one unhappiness. This would reflect religious conflicts.
    -You would have option to ban certain religion. That would cause two unhappiness in every town that had that it had spread to, it would give you half of the gold your cities had paid because of that religion and cities would stop paying tithe to that religion. If you ban religion that some civilization has in over 50% of it's cities that civilization gets very angry and is likely to declare war.
  10. Sonereal

    Sonereal ♫We got the guillotine♫ Supporter

    Mar 31, 2008
    I hated espionage. I ignored it and the only time me ignoring it had an affect on me was when my neighbor was Sitting Bull.

    As for religion. I saw this incredibly interesting model for religion in the mod discussion section by Lemmy. The idea is there's a tree sorta like the social policy trees with different gods on it. The Gods are pretty general. God of War, God of Creation, etc.

    Your cities generate piety points depending on buildings but unlike culture, you have to spend the points when its time. You can choose to focus on multiple aspects of polytheism but if you focus on one, your civilization becomes monotheistic and there's a new set of policies but this is where things get interesting.

    There's a tech called "Enlightenment". When unlocked, you're no longer forced to spend your accumulated piety points. Why does that matter? Because while the early monotheistic policies are great, the policies grow increasingly fundamentalist such as the ban of a random luxury resource, holy wars, and more.

    Also, you get to name the religion you found at Monotheism. :lol:

    Here's the thread
  11. JLoZeppeli

    JLoZeppeli Prince

    May 11, 2009
    I think it is reasonable that religion is not player driven, but the politics interwined with it.

    So building, wonders, specific social politics ( i hope that will be either a real political system were in democracy war declaration can be stopped indipendently by player decision, as an example) etc..
  12. seasnake

    seasnake Conquistador

    Apr 21, 2006
    California, United States
    First, I'd add in Causus Belli, the system from EU3: Heir to the Throne that negates most of the penalties of declaring war in certain situations. These Causes last a certain number of turns and your foreign advisor keeps track of each one, how long it lasts and warns you when it's about to expire. Then I'd in a Prestige counter that lowers or raises your affection from city states and the amount of happiness in your cities. Finally I'd add back in random events.

    Espionage: You accumulate espionage and can spend them on missions or random events. You need to send a spy unit to carry out a mission.

    Random Events: The role of EPs here is that the more you have saved, the greater the options available in case of random event. For example, if a beautiful Russia princess runs off with one of your princes, you have the default of options either keeping her and give Catherine a Causus Belli against you, or return her and lose prestige. However if you some EPs banked, you can spend them to smuggle the Princess back so there are no consequences, or spend less EPs and send an emissary which limits the number of turns of Catherine's Causus Belli but keeps your prestige level the same, or Spend a lot of EPs to declare a huge wedding celebration which results in four turns of golden age, but gives Catherine a LONG causus belli and you lose prestige.

    The goal is that by using your EPs in this way you can make more decisions that have a variety of impacts. You don't have to run an active mission to enjoy EPs.

    On Missions: You can choose the amount of espionage you want to spend on each mission, with your military advisor giving you a minimum amount and a recommended amount. Missions include fomenting rebellion (weaken's city defense), coup d'tat (in city states, if you succeed they love you, if you fail they hate you, protector will hate you no matter what), steal plans (see enemy troops), sabotage building (a building has no positive effects for some turns, still has maintenance), assasinate captain (penalty to target units combat effectiveness), Poison well (negative food), pirate trade routes (gifts from city states are halved), destroy improvement, etc. If you get caught doing these things you lose prestige and give a causus belli to the affected. The more EPs you spend on the mission increases your likelihood of not getting caught, or spend a LOT of EPs and your spies will, if caught, make it look like another civ did it! That civ gets a notification that they're being blamed for an incident and if they spend enough EPs themselves they can correct the record.

    So say the American's send a spy into Russia. The Spy mission is to assassinate a unit leader. The American's spend about 120 EPs, the recommended amount is usually 120. The Spy succeeds, the leader is killed, the unit now suffers a morale and movement penalty for two turns. However the spy is caught escaping, and the Russians know who did this. Catherine has a Causus Belli and your prestige drops.

    Say the Americans spend 200 EPs, in that case the Spy does his job in such a horrifying manner that the target unit is shaken for four turns. The Spy is still caught, but convinces the Russians he works for Augustus. Augustus is notified that a spy has been caught and he's to blame! If he has 300 EPs, he can spend them to get to the bottom of this and learn that America was behind the assassination, which prevents him from losing prestige, from Catherine having a CB against him, and then both he AND Catherine have a causus belli against America. Either one can declare war without seriously damaging their production or happiness.

    Finally I'd have buildings that increase EPs, that protect cities and nearby units from successful mission, I'd have forts reduce the risk of damage to units and nearby improvements from missions.

    This is how I would do espionage.
  13. durannarud

    durannarud Chieftain

    Oct 19, 2010
    Religion sucks because of the whole political correctness problem... I'd love it if each religion had its pros and cons.

    As for implementation, it should be done through city states, whereby some of them are assigned a religion which they can spread.

    As for espionage, there should be a diff. between open borders and letting someone else's entire army trample your countryside. So spies/diplomats/specialists should be the only units that can explore another nation's land, unless they let you move your armies on their land (which ought to be very unlikely).

    Those spying units should be able to stun troops (stopping them in their tracks for 1 turn), foment unhappiness, assassinate generals that aren't assigned to a unit, increase your research speed on techs the other nation has, etc.

    And if you have a lot of them in enemy territory, it should lower the enemy's defense bonuses.

    Anyway, so many cool things you can do with a concept like espionage.
  14. the_lor

    the_lor Chieftain

    Sep 21, 2010
    I’ve never liked Civ’s implementation of espionage. If they put in something high level, where if you gained a superiority you got to see their lands/units, gained a little more insight into their thoughts about you, got a 5 turn notice before they declared war, etc… I think it would be fine.

    Religion I hated in Civ 4. It was a tech race to fund your economy in the late game. I wouldn’t mind bringing it back in, where you got points to a great prophet and could use him to find a religion. It would more or less just open you up to religious buildings. Spreading it to other cultures would provide mild diplomatic bonuses, but nothing as iron-clad as Civ 4’s implementation.
  15. Lay_Lay

    Lay_Lay King

    Oct 4, 2007
    The most powerful civic combinations can be unlocked and chosen, only while you are in 'Free Religion.' Free Religion permits foreign religions to spread to your border cities via opponent initiated missionaries and/or terrorists.
    Cities with multiple religions can experience some kind of civil strife, especially under certain civics/conditions.
    This could be a fun way to wage jihad against an opponent who is shooting for the most powerful science or military civics, clearly building for war or for the win.
    One could 100% avoid holy war by not permitting Free Religion - grow slower, in relative peace.
  16. Clement

    Clement Layman

    Oct 7, 2010
    Perhaps you could have a set amount of random prophets spring up in different cities at different times, you can't choose your people's religion, whatever city that prophet appears in follows that religion, every now and again a city linked to that city would also convert, the prophet automatically builds a holy place there which adds gold and culture.

    The spread is slow to give time for the other random prophets to appear, the religions spread out from the point of their first appearance, the leader of a civ becomes affiliated to the first one that appeared in his borders (if he chooses to follow it and get it's benefits, unhappiness penalty if he does'nt), but if another one spreads to one of his cities he can convert, although if that religion is not originally owned by him he loses out on gold, and each one of his cities is worth a small amount of gold in revenue to the original owner of the religion he now follows.

    Religion offers happiness also, if two civs share the same religion they tolerate borders better but if not their borders are even more prickly than two civs that have no religion at all.

    As to what happens in the modern era thats a bit tougher, perhaps the game could automatically reduce both the penalties and benefits of having a religion, just an idea :)

    the idea is to allow friendships among civs, but as you lose gold for following someone elses way, its an interesting choice to make.

    There's probably loads of holes in this idea, sorry about that it's late and i only spent 10 mins thinking hehe.
  17. D_Toccs

    D_Toccs Chieftain

    Aug 8, 2010
    That is exactly what espionage gave you in Civ IV. I notice that alot of the people who say they hated espionage in actual fact didn't know how to correctly use it.
    When used correctly espionage offered an incredible variety to gameplay. I have used it to stifle a rivals growth, steal technologies, aid allies by remaining a peace with their enemy yet sending massive waves of spies in to sabotage roads and cause city revolts.

    Nothing in CiV even comes close to adding that sort of dynamic to gameplay.
  18. Badtz Maru

    Badtz Maru King

    Oct 30, 2001
    Religion would be a new policy branch, but instead of being able to unlock every option in that branch, some would be either/or, like polytheism and monotheism. Different aspects would have different effects, there might even be some negative ones you had to take to get to good ones, like dietary restrictions or prohibitions on evangelism. Some benefits would be available to every city where the religion is present, or where there is a temple of that religion, and some would only be available to governments who had made that religion a state religion.

    Religions would spread automatically based on their different aspects and the policies of the countries they are spreading into. Missionaries would be available in one branch of religion aspects, but there would be alternative branches with powerful strengths that do not allow missionaries.

    All religions would be generic, with the assumption that every nation starts with an extremely primitive form of supernatural belief, that you could totally ignore for the entire game without any real negative effect. More advanced religions would spread much more easily than primitive religions, so you're likely to pick up some much better religions later if you want to have a state religion but don't want to use any policies on religion. You could also adopt a religion, and then invest into it yourself to change it - you could have the Romans adopt the Greek religion, add a few policies to make it their own, then later abandon it to adopt a monotheistic Middle-Eastern religion, then change that around by adding saints...you get the idea. The player could choose to name any religion in the game to what they like, but it would be optional to avoid offending real world religions.
  19. Benzidrine

    Benzidrine Chieftain

    Oct 15, 2010
    Espionage to me should be a seperate screen with units and a small blank hex board with the objective of using your spies against other spies to control a section of the board. With your espionage capabilities dependent on how many squares you control relative to other civs. Its the only way to have espionage be fun imo is to have a perpetual war on this seperate board between all civs.
  20. lemmy101

    lemmy101 Emperor

    Apr 10, 2006

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