a) all people have the right to say what they want.
b) it is politically incorrect/ encourages extremism/is wrong /shouldn't be said in front of children etc. and must therefore in human decensy be abolished.
Anyway, tell me about these people who have been captured by the secret services. All the facts please. Peaceful, I take it?
Here are a few facts that might have brought Raise the Fist to the attention of the authorities.
1. The USA founder of raise the first and several other members are already facing trials stemming from violent demonstations in Long Beach last May. Assuming the founder above is thsame as the one previously arrested this would indicate he was out on bail.
2. They are some articles suggesting that they may be aiding the haboring of illegal aliens, a rather touchy subject right now.
3. The Peru branch of raisethefist has been under investigation for connection to the Shinning Path guerillas.
The way I see it, it was just a website devoted to showing people they can be free. The government had NO right to do this... I have heard about other government stormings of website servers, and I don't like it one bit.
The US and other like nations are beginning to show signs of fascism in my eyes... don't, PLEASE don't discuss this in detail with me. I am jsut stating my opinion that the US has no right to do this in the "Land of Freedom". More like the land of opressive rich people that eliminate all talk of freedom and hate of the government. I have to say, this American Nationalism is making me CRINGE! It is evil I tell you! The government is even more opressive than bfore 9/11. People have nothing to worry about than fear itself, but the US government is taking every oppurtunity to end "threats" to their nation.
Note- I am not anti-American, so, you FBI and CIA agents out there, don't come knocking on my door.
Boy I love it when Haakan starts a thread!!! He always has such good things to say... Anything productive to say Haakan?
Anyway, my post:
Flatlander Fox was shaken out of bed yesterday by a team of rabid drug sniffing squirrels, who were operated by "squirrel wranglers" from the ATF.
They were acting on a tip from a communist spy (Davo?Corn?) inside a rogue website, known as Civfanatics, who said Fox was a drug runner in a vast worldwide Cartel. He also deals in other bad, evil things sources say.
Mr. Fox was attacked by the squirrels, but managed to kill most of them before being brought down by hundreds of tiny poisonous darts... Shot by pygmies...
Who were placed by the CIA...
Who were following their orders from little green men in space...
Who reportedly get their orders from Mrs. Fox.
At press time Mrs. Fox was not available for comment.
Have seen this site before, and from my observation was basically a mish mash of socialists, anarchists, and self styled revolutionaries with the avowed goal of overthrowing the evils of capitalist, imperialist society. It is no surprise that they should be under surveillance.
There are the side issues as well that were raised by DinoDoc.
And I do take any partisan accounts of the alleged events with more than a pinch of salt (all the salt in the Dead Sea, actually).
Raid all the commies!
And arrest that red spy Joe McCarthy!
Let me get this straight. The computer equipment of an Anti-government website was alegedly raided by the government. Now according to DinoDoc, (I put as much credence here as I do in the original story (No offense Dino I think you'll see my point)) the owner of this equipment could be under investigation for harboring illegal aliens. Likely he is not doing this alone, and this would fall under the heading of conspiricy. Someone under investigation for this would legitimately have their computer equipment siezed as evidence.
I realize I am supposed to read this and see the light that the federal government has become the new Nazi's and has swept down on a peaceloving website solely because it was publishing anti-government material. I'm sorry, but I need a bit more than one radical's interpretation of how big brother came down on him. Everyone has their spin, and I'm sure Al Capone didn't just say, "Ah shucks, you caught me. I'll go quietly to The Rock" Rather it was likely fervent denials and verbose outrage at this perversion of justice and invasion of privacy.
From the little that the goverment has said about this particular raid, it does not appear to be directly realted to the previous matters investigated. Baised on only two lines of rather vauge mumbo jumbo the current invetigations involve some some of fraud by computor, threats against the president, and something about bomb making instructions (which would have to be connected to something else, like maybe threats against the president, to get action from law enforcement)
Yeah, I too would like to know more facts, from different sides, on this.
However, given that the feds have run roughshod over seemingly every other amendment in the Bill of Rights, from the right to keep and bear arms, to searches and seizures, to rights reserved to states and the people, I wouldn't go on faith alone that the first amendment isn't "fair game", too.
Too bad that the government has a credibility problem, but who's fault is that?
Like I said though, I like hearing all sides and then judging for myself.
Sigh, another US gov't is evil thread. Ok, the secret is out, now give us all your oil, women, and money.
Why would I believe in a site that has been shutdown? I have more faith in the American gov't (not much more). If I saw it on 60 minutes or 20/20 I would listen, but these guys/girls don't have any credibilty to me.
"Why would I believe in a site that has been shutdown? I have more faith in the American gov't (not much more). If I saw it on 60 minutes or 20/20 I would listen, but these guys/girls don't have any credibilty to me."
Myabe, maybe not.
Of course, Amnesty International puts together its reports on human rights abuses around the world (including a few--not many, but a few--in the US) largely on stories told them by various people. When it CAN investigate further to back them up, it does, but often it cannot. But still, it operates on the principle that SOMEONE has to listen to these people, because the danger of them being right is itself very serious. Remember that until the Nazi death camps were overrun by allied troops, no real "proof" of the atrocities there could be provided, and so not too many people really believed the stories--surely NO human being could do such things to their fellow man, right?
I wanted more facts before I made up my mind for sure about the shutdown of this site, but I'm not going to just assume that the government had "good reasons"--they've lied to the people before, kept things secret (like the Warren report about JFK's assassination--why don't they just make it public? Of COURSE their not doing so sows doubts), and generally haven't been honest and forthright in everything they do. I'm NOT inventing these things, they are REAL. So I CANNOT have 100% faith in the government enough to just ignore any and all greivances said against it. I can only have 100% faith in people who have proven 100% trustworthy to me.
Let's just say that I have 50% trust in the siteholders and 50% in the government--and I'd like more facts to help me get to the bottom of this. Of course, all those who have close to 100% faith in the government "always doing the right thing" in cases like this (I got three words for them--J. Edgar Hoover) are going to ignore this, and so few people will actually ask critical questions, that it will become a non-issue very soon--unfortunately. Well it's either faith, or just that people can't be bothered. Well they can use their faith to hope the government doesn't intrude on them next, I guess.
The price of freedom is eternal vigilance. Not faith, but vigilance. Take NOTHING for granted....
"ONCE AGAIN HAKAAN ERIKSON TWISTS REALITY TO BASH THE UNITED STATES
"Give it up."
Whatever his motives (I couldn't care less), this is something that individual Americans who DO love their country (I know I do) should try to investigate, rather than simply dismiss. I plan on doing exactly that. I may not agree with everything "Raisethefist" stood for, but my agreement or disagreement is irrelevant. Freedom is all or nothing....