Huge AI performance improvement SOLUTIONS

Could be an idea to factor in how happy AI is based on how valuable lux is. Even though AI will pay less for lux now, i still think the base 200 gold when friendly is a little too much. About 160 would be about right, if AI_CAN_USE=true, otherwise the base price should be half that or something. lux to lux trading should be equal.

Also i would like to see the AI put better use of its sometimes massive ammounts of gold. As a player i rarely have over 1000 gold, late game maybe i have sometimes hit 2000+. So IMO it would improve if the AI would more actively try to use its gold if GOLD > 'much gold'.
 
I lol'd at DoW everybody. Thanks. I needed that this morning.

I'll take your suggestions if I ever go back to playing prince difficulty.
Moderator Action: Please don't troll around.
 
We're in dire need of all of this. Modders have tried but apparently without the dlls can only do so much.

#1) Yeah, it shouldn't put value on GPT given by you since you could declare any time. It should trade lux for lux anytime, but should only pay a small fraction of the gold for lux unless hap < 0.

#2) They should pay tribute, but only based on how many of their units you have killed (or cities captured), and even then only if they think they are losing.

#3) It should know when it wants your borders (through a few calculations). If it doesn't want them, no trade. If it wants them, borders for borders. If it really wants them (which should be rare), it will pay 50 gold and make that offer itself (after you reject borders for borders).

#4) (see #1) - For We Love the King it should calculate a value based on the expected growth. they should be conservative with this (giving less gold than they think it's worth) and there should be a ceiling for how much extra gold they will give for this consideration.

Also i would like to see the AI put better use of its sometimes massive ammounts of gold. As a player i rarely have over 1000 gold, late game maybe i have sometimes hit 2000+. So IMO it would improve if the AI would more actively try to use its gold if GOLD > 'much gold'.

Step 1: Severely tweak the gold handicaps so poorer AIs benefit a lot more and richer AIs benefit a lot less.
Step 2: This.

Nothing helps AI performance. Solution to all your points? Don't do it.

I follow this line of thought, but still trade luxes for gold because they should be willing to pay some gold for luxes. The problem is they always offer the maximum amount regardless of their situation, and yeah, I take what they offer. Don't do borders, (deliberate) tributes, or GPT tricks though, which toughens the game pretty significantly; AI bonuses on higher difficulties could ramp up slower if these problems were fixed and be as challenging as (and more interesting than) the current system.
 
To the OP, sorry for my last msg, what i meant to say is that you already proposed solutions, no need for discussion the way you put them out. For the point of your argument and for keeping it simple, do not abuse of the game shortcomings is the way imho. Simple, clean and its available even to the less fortunate like me :p
 
This is what I have to say.

One big issue is the amount of GPT and Gold the AI civs have. Three to five grand in gold and upwards of 200-300 GPT, by late game, if not sooner. This seems rather ridiculous. Their cities are huge and their armies very large. Happiness is never an issue with AI civs, or very seldom is it. Still, alleviating this to balance AI economies to match the human player will not fix the ineptness of the AI. In fact, I believe it will deepen it. The human player, pretty much always gains the upper hand on the AI, no matter how rich it is, or how large it's army gets.

The simple fact is, the AI does not know how to fight, when it comes down to it. How many of you truly have been defeated in a war, as an experienced player? I have had it happen once, when I first started playing on emperor. I was at one point defeated on king by a dogpile, again I was unexperienced. Once I learned how to play the AI does not stand a chance. Now, if I played Diety, it probably would win, but not because the AI is better at fighting, it would simply out tech me and win with superior units. Or, it would out distance me in tech enough for it to win another type of victory condition. The AI just gets huge bonuses, obviously, as we all know, as levels get harder. Too bad it did not get a bonus to actually make it smarter, as difficulty levels get harder.

Saying that, the problem goes back to square one, which is AI tactical programming. The AI will take one city from you. You simply take it back and begin to take it's cities one by one as you wear down it's forces. That's really all there is to it.

The current naval AI, will send a fleet to sneak attack you, but then decide not too. In this case, you simply gather forces near it, and can then DoW that civ and destroy their fleet. You simply strategically place your pieces as in chess and then strike.

If this AI fleet does invade it may take a coastal city. Again it does not follow up on it's conquest, the same as with land combat. So, you take back your city and destroy the invading fleet. Then you build your own fleet and invade the AI's territory and defeat them. Right? I have seen this time and time again.

The question, how do we give the AI more resolve to fight and win? To take cities and hold them? I suppose the first thing to do is study AI capabiltiy as it is in the game now. Gather evidence from the players experiences, from playing the game, and compare results. Perhaps make a chart of what the AI can do, and what it cannot do. As well as, what it does right, and what it does wrong. After the results are collected and analyzed, the devs or modders, can work on getting it to do more of what it should, in order to fight better. :)
 
They say it's easy to bash, hard to offer solutions. This thread is for solutions.

In order for things to start improving, I am posting some things and maybe people who are in charge will learn something. As a chess master and computer strategy games expert, I know what I'm talking about. I don't know how can AI combat performance improve directly. I do now how to hugely improve it's overall performance via improvement of economical and diplomatical features.

*Important note* good AI =/= handicaps. Deity players please skip this thread if you don't have anything relevant to say. You win on Deity? Good for you. That only shows how much truth is below. Because if an AI that gets such huge advantages manages to lose, it only shows he's totally useless. What is below applies very well for Prince-Immortal so it really needs to be fixed asap.


Problem 1 : Massive Gold Theft Exploit.

I can, and do steal 100.000+ gold during a huge game with 12 civs from the other 11 AIs. With this gold, I buy Markets, Universities, Castles, settlers, workers. The task difficulty of defeating the AI drops dramatically because of this.

Problem 1: Easy solutions

a. When trading, AI will NEVER put ANY value on Gold Per Turn AND it will NEVER put ANY value on Luxuries unless his happiness level is <0.

Why this works: The task difficulty (TD) will increase because of this fix, as players will no longer have the advantage of thousands upon thousands of extra gold during the game. It will BE harder to defeat the AI, even if he will remain the same combat-wise. Reasons not to do what I propose : NONE.

There's plainly an exploitable issue, but I think this solution is too strong. Firstly, trading gold for luxuries you don't need is a perfectly valid tactic in itself - it's exploitation that's the problem. Effectively barring it altogether reduces the options available in diplomacy. The AI already has the ability to weigh deals by its diplomatic status; perhaps only allow gold trading with friends (rather than just give them a better deal), or when suing for peace? Correspondingly, the amount of gold a civ will grant should go down - you can currently get 240 for a single unwanted luxury with a friend, which is almost exactly the cost of an early-game Research Agreeement that is plainly far more powerful.

Gold per turn value should be calculated based on the overall amount of gold that would be granted over the lifetime of the deal (so that if a civ will trade you 240 gold as a one-off payment, it would be willing to accept a deal of 8 gpt over 30 turns but no more). This is an advantage to the AI because it makes the player (as long as said player can do elementary mathematics) less likely to declare war before the deal's up, and what's more it will cost the AI less if it plans to declare war itself during the lifetime of the deal. So it may be in the AI's interest to preferentially offer/accept gpt terms.

Finally, you missed strategic resources - the AI should check the units it has access to, and will only be willing to trade (at all, not just for gold) if it detects units or buildings that need that resource (no more "I'm in the Atomic Era - could use more horses"). This calculation would have to ignore buildings (since it will always have access to circus or forge late in the game, but doesn't actually need horses or iron as these buildings will already have been constructed in cities that want them), so it may suffer slightly on this front, but a compromise is needed somewhere.

It should also be programmed to check whether it actually has any of resource X remaining, and should only accept a trade for gold if it doesn't, since until it runs out it's able to support any new resource-demanding units it wants.

Problem 2 : Irrational War Tributes

I can, and do Declare War on everybody I meet, in order for them to give me everything that they have after 10-15 turns, with the sole condition that I am up in the army strenght. In a game with many AIs, this gives me THOUSANDS of extra gold from the Tribute the AI pays me. It also gives me their cities, later in the game, along with strategical resources and luxuries.
The problem is that AI sees me as a threat even if I don't even know or care about where he is and what he's doing.

Problem 2 : Easy Solutions.

a. AI will never offer tribute to the human player, nor accept anything that the human proposes to him. (Later edit : except peace at no cost, of course). (Doing so would only worsen his position, as the human will make the deal and still continue to destroy him after 10 turns.)

Why this works: AI stands at a loss in the system of tribute. He does not accurately understand his chances during the war. Paying things, including cities, can only help to hasten his demise. Especially when making them for absolutely no logical reason whatsoever.

All of which is true if the AI's facing a domination player, but this is not invariably the case - mostly in my games the AI sues for peace after declaring war but then losing said war, and I'll only prosecute it further if the AI is a threat. On the other hand, I won't accept a peace deal that gives me nothing if I'm in a strong enough position to make demands. If they give me what they have I'm less likely to go after them again because everything they give me weakens their position, making them less of a threat/rival and so giving me less incentive to attack them - exactly as the AI is programmed to expect. There are also specific cases where this kind of deal makes sense - if the AI is going to lose a specific city anyway, for instance, and offers you a peace deal for peace + that city and nothing else.

This is an extremely tricky problem, and not one I can recall any Civ game really cracking, but banning the tribute system is not the solution. And, once again, there's a difference between an exploit (such as declaring war repeatedly in order to steal their assets) and a valid strategy (which declaring war to obtain a favourable settlement that will weaken a rival should be). However you design an AI it's going to be exploitable by people determined to exploit it.

G&K certainly strikes a better balance than vanilla, in which peace was either on their (inflated) terms or a complete capitulation on the AI's part. You're right that it still isn't good enough, but it's probably as good as it can reasonably be at this stage - it works fine for people who aren't actively out to exploit the system, and frankly it's not the fault of the AI if you've worked out how to exploit, go out of your way to do so, and then complain that it's too easy to exploit.

If it's more fun to play in a way that doesn't exploit the AI, simply play that way, because nothing you can do to program an AI is going to resolve this kind of issue without banning entire playstyles outright, and that's just bad design (as with Civ IV killing ICS by actively making it impossible, rather than by making it an undesirable strategy).

I think one solution that will cover a lot of these without AI adjustments is simply reducing the gold bonuses the AI gets at higher levels. It appears not to actually need or make a great deal of use of the gold advantages it has, since you routinely see AIs at higher levels with 3,000 gold in reserve or more. If an AI has less gold, then the player is inherently constrained in what he can demand - if I give this AI luxuries for gold, I can buy a research agreement! Except that I've just grabbed all the AI's gold and none of my friends can now afford a research agreement...

How about adding more diplo options that demand payment by the AI (such as a trade agreement option, as in Civ IV?), so that there are more demands on the AI's gold that the player will benefit from. That way it simply becomes less attractive to extort all the gold you can from bad trades, because the AI won't have enough left to support the good ones.

Problem 3 : Paying Something for Nothing.

Let's face it, 99% of the times, the open borders that you sell for 50 gold is completly and absolutely useless for the AI. He doesn't need it, it doesn't help him, he doesn't use it. Getting 50 gold / AI means 500 gold / 10 AI , means 1 Library or 1 Market bought with money obtained for selling nothing. This can only hurt the chances of success of the AI.

Problem 3 : Easy Solution.

AI will ONLY trade Open Borders for Open Borders and nothing else. That is simple, effective, logical, and sensible. Reasons not to do this : NONE!

Agreed - I have no idea why this was changed since open borders were always mutual in previous versions of Civ. Alternatively, open borders should provide some kind of diplomatic benefit that makes them worth some cost (probably reduced - why is open borders worth 50 while the more useful embassy - which does include a diplomatic modifier - is only worth 25?).

Problem 4 : Bad Trades.

Imagine you're playing Duel against 1 other good player. At some point, he has 2 resources of FURS. He offers you the deal : you give him 240 gold and he gives you 1 FUR. Do you accept? If you are like me, (good player) , You immediately click REFUSE.
He gets something, but loses nothing. This is a BAD trade.
During the game, you can make TENS of THOUSANDS of gold by selling luxuries. Who profits? It should be obvious. The one who gets to buy Universities, Public Schools, and the like with the money obtained from the deal.

The only exception is if you need that because you a. have unhappiness. and b. will go into "we love the king" . AI already cheats his way to having happiness so he does not need to make such bad trades.

Problem 4 : Easy Solution

a. AI will only buy luxury resource IF : 1) he has unhappiness. 2) He will have "We love the King" in the CAPITAL.

See above. Does the AI benefit from Golden Ages? I recall reading that it doesn't, but if it does that complicates the equation. I don't think restricting it to the capital is a good plan - trading for We Love the King is a good plan anywhere, just reduce the gold he's willing to pay. As in:

1. Do I have unhappiness? Will pay X
2. Do I have We Love The King? Will pay Y. Will pay Z (higher) if same resource needed for We Love the King in two or more cities.

The AI should be programmed always to offer a lux-for-lux trade first, if possible, and only to offer gold if that is refused.

Also, the AI knows when the player has severe unhappiness (hence the contacts "I can hear your people wailing from my empire"), so it should actively offer luxuries to the player (if not hostile) for gold or luxuries.

You present interesting ideas, but mostly too narrowly-focused on your particular (and aggressive) style of play, and consequently you suggest changes that are too limiting for other playstyles or for players not actively out to exploit the system.

So Hwacha is bugged (gets +200 vs cities) when upgraded from the catapult. So you are saying that instead of it being fixed, it's better for people to just not use it anymore. Correct?

While it's not ideal, in actual fact since learning about that I do refuse to use Hwach'a against cities because it's exploiting a bug. Of course it needs to be fixed, but this is a simple binary issue - a feature that was not intended has found its way into the system and can easily be removed. The AI is not faced with binary situations in the cases you outline above, and your proposed binary solutions are consequently not appropriate. It's appropriate to remove the city attack bonus from the Hwach'a because it can be exploited. It's not appropriate to remove gold trading from the AI because it can be exploited - the situations simply aren't comparable.
 
When making payments to the player for luxes, etc, the AI should always choose GPT over paying up front. That way war breaks the benefit of the trade for both parties.

I don't see the selling Open Borders bit as being a problem. It is a small amount of gold and the downsides of selling open borders are heavy. (the AI now knows what you have in there and can covet it). If you want to avoid war you avoid Open Borders like the plague at least with your neighbors. Usually I'm the one buying Open Borders from the AI. On rare occasions I let allies through to fight an aggressor on the other side.

I don't have a problem with tribute, but it does need tweaked. The current setup seems to go:
1. No peace at any price!
2. No peace at any price!
3. No peace at any price!
4. TAKE EVERYTHING I OWN PLEASE DON"T HURT ME!

Cater the gold offers to what would be valuable to a human player instead of the crazy amounts the AI has in pocket.
 
I want the AI to try to hold his own. I want him to not get raped and tossed around like the garbage that he currently is. Is this so unacceptable?

I want AI not to fight to the death, only to ask for Peace at no cost.

Peace at no cost that would be declined by most players anyway?

Start a standard game. Make a few warriors. Declare war on everybody. In 10 turns get 300 gold and 10 gold per turn from them. < This sucks, is an AI bug and a silly exploit and needs to be fixed.

Or , trade 5000 gold during the game with somebody then declare war and you just made 5000 gold out of thin air. If this isn't obviously wrong for some people, no arguments will suffice.

I don't think the AI gives up quite so easily there, but I DO agree that swindling the AI out of 5k gold with a DOW is wrong.


Maybe you, I don't, because I'd only give him more money to make something useful with it.
200gp? He'll buy a unit. I have +4 happiness for 30 turns. Much more useful in my opinion.


This is a GAME, man, try to grasp this. Real world =/= a game. You have Montezuma fighting with Napoleon and you want realism? I want a good AI not realism.

Even in game, I'd buy oil off someone, even just to be able to have a chance to get my own oil reserves with a tactical war. There's no way in hell I'm gonna fight against a civ which has bombers, rockets and infantry with my infantry and rockets and no air support...
 
I want to see him make 3 warriors and DoW someone in one of my saved games. hehe.
 
I'd be fine with the AI not buying luxuries it didn't need, if it ever stopped cheating on happiness, and MIGHT have a cause to need one, someday. As it stands, the AI will never have -ve happiness.
 
Start a standard game. Make a few warriors. Declare war on everybody. In 10 turns get 300 gold and 10 gold per turn from them. < This sucks, is an AI bug and a silly exploit and needs to be fixed.

Yeah...never seen this happen, ever. The AI won't offer me anything for peace unless I'm knocking on the door of his ~10 health capital. And even then, half the time it doesn't matter what I do to the AI they will just refuse peace.
 
Hmm.

What I read from the OP is that the trading AI is broken, and therefore we should remove it rather than try to fix it.

This isn't fixing anything.

Now, it seems clear that the issue with the 'DoW for money' option expressed by the OP is a poor calculation of relative military might. I see no suggestions in the OP for fixing this issue.

Therefore, I will give one.

Currently, it seems that only strategic / long-term military power is used to determine the course of a war, from the AI's standpoint. This is borne out by the tribute issue mentioned in the OP, and also the execrable job performed by the Military Advisor.

I therefore suggest creating two different indices for the course of the war: Tactical / Short-Term, and Strategic / Long-term. The Tactical Index would have quite a bit of information that is not recorded currently: Number of battles won in this war on each side, how many units destroyed, how many cities captures, etc. The Strategic Index would not only include overall military levels, but also size of treasury, production power of each power, and relative tech levels.

With such indices, a more accurate portrayal of warfare could be gained. You could model perhaps the classic WWII US vs. Japan conflict quite well, for example.

Also, I would be very open to helping create more conditional statements for the AI.
 
Hmm.

What I read from the OP is that the trading AI is broken, and therefore we should remove it rather than try to fix it.

This isn't fixing anything.

Now, it seems clear that the issue with the 'DoW for money' option expressed by the OP is a poor calculation of relative military might. I see no suggestions in the OP for fixing this issue.

Therefore, I will give one.

Currently, it seems that only strategic / long-term military power is used to determine the course of a war, from the AI's standpoint. This is borne out by the tribute issue mentioned in the OP, and also the execrable job performed by the Military Advisor.

I therefore suggest creating two different indices for the course of the war: Tactical / Short-Term, and Strategic / Long-term. The Tactical Index would have quite a bit of information that is not recorded currently: Number of battles won in this war on each side, how many units destroyed, how many cities captures, etc. The Strategic Index would not only include overall military levels, but also size of treasury, production power of each power, and relative tech levels.]

This is a very good idea, but an index would be very difficult to accurately calculate for the AI, because the relative value of each component will vary too much for a formula to work. The AI does need a straightforward figure to work with like the current military strength figure - however the idea of also considering number of battles won, which could very easily be calculated by the AI, is very strong and not obviously difficult to incorporate. An AI that's got the military advantage but is doing badly in war should know that it may be better-served by preserving its forces so that it can focus its efforts on an easier target - it also makes the actual tactical element introduced by Civ V more relevant since the better tactical player will win more battles.

How should success in battle be quantified? Number of successful attacks doesn't work because any ranged attack has 100% success by its nature, and you can have a lot of 'minor victories' from battles that may still ultimately cost you units. Number of cities taken is difficult, since the importance of this will vary with the number of cities the civ has as well as factors the AI can't consider, such as strategic importance. However, a straight "number of units killed by enemy civ" is very easy to calculate - it will also tend to be slightly biased towards the human player, while the existing military strength calculation is inherently biased towards the AI. The final 'war progress' calculation might be as simple as comparing the proportion of military units lost by each side.
 
What I read from the OP is that the trading AI is broken, and therefore we should remove it rather than try to fix it.

It's been a few years now since the game came out. Surely there must have been others before me that reported these exploits. I am assuming that a less radical fix is impossible, since they did not do it until now. My take is like this, if you have a cancer in your arm, and I can't heal it, at least I can cut your arm outright and maybe then you won't die from metastasis.

Now, it seems clear that the issue with the 'DoW for money' option expressed by the OP is a poor calculation of relative military might. I see no suggestions in the OP for fixing this issue.

In fact the one I proposed is, I think, the best one for the AI. Military might assessment is quite a difficult task, because there's just too many factors involved. It would need to take promotions into consideration, Health levels, ( A single healthy warrior can beat 3 injured ones for sure, for example, but the computer would assess the 3 as being better), army location should also count, as having a compact army does not compare to having units scattered all over the map. Much too complex task to do it right. Much more simple to just solve the problem the easy way.
 
In fact the one I proposed is, I think, the best one for the AI. Military might assessment is quite a difficult task, because there's just too many factors involved. It would need to take promotions into consideration, Health levels, ( A single healthy warrior can beat 3 injured ones for sure, for example, but the computer would assess the 3 as being better), army location should also count, as having a compact army does not compare to having units scattered all over the map. Much too complex task to do it right. Much more simple to just solve the problem the easy way.

It just needs to do it better than it does now. As I and others have gone over on multiple other threads, the AI will never act like a human or take human strategic considerations into account. It needs simple rules that allow it to achieve essentially the same objectives, which is not the same as asking it to take into consideration everything that a human would.

In another thread I showed an example of a recent attack on one of my cities by AI Germany. The AI used many more units than I'd need to to accomplish the same task, it didn't use them as well as I would, and it lost more than I'd be likely to in the process. But ultimately it got the job done and took the city. You see the same thing in Total War or other strategy games - give the AI control and it will use brute force; the side with larger numbers will win, but will lose a lot in the process.

The Shogun 2 campaign is even programmed to turn all AI factions against a player who becomes too strong precisely to challenge him through weight of numbers alone - because this is the best way the designers found to offer an AI challenge to the human.

In terms of the AI calculation of military might, what the AI needs to know is: "Who's winning?" and "By how much?" It doesn't need to know if it's lost more promoted units or those with better promotions than its enemy, or whether it has units at greater risk than those of its enemy. But it does need something better than "I've still got more units, therefore I'm winning", particularly since on higher difficulty levels the AI is granted so many extra units that it's pretty much dooming itself to destruction - it will never offer peace as long as it has more units than you do, however badly the war's going.
 
Problem 1 : Massive Gold Theft Exploit.

I can, and do steal 100.000+ gold during a huge game with 12 civs from the other 11 AIs. With this gold, I buy Markets, Universities, Castles, settlers, workers. The task difficulty of defeating the AI drops dramatically because of this.

Problem 1: Easy solutions

a. When trading, AI will NEVER put ANY value on Gold Per Turn AND it will NEVER put ANY value on Luxuries unless his happiness level is <0.

Why this works: The task difficulty (TD) will increase because of this fix, as players will no longer have the advantage of thousands upon thousands of extra gold during the game. It will BE harder to defeat the AI, even if he will remain the same combat-wise. Reasons not to do what I propose : NONE.
Having the AI put no value on GPT and Luxuries is too harsh. You're assuming happiness doesn't matter unless it's below zero, but golden ages are based on happiness. Besides, let's face it: the AI rarely has happiness problems, so you'll never be able to sell luxuries, because when a civ DOES have happiness problems, they're probably broke as well. Now, is that happiness worth 240 gold per deal (on Normal)? I don't think so, but then the value can simply be adjusted downward, not dropped to zero. I would like to see the GPT exploits addressed, but again, simply making the AI not care about it at all would be too much. Make them value it less/give a diplomatic penalty to the player for screwing the civ out of gold by DoWing immediately to break the deal.
Problem 2 : Irrational War Tributes

I can, and do Declare War on everybody I meet, in order for them to give me everything that they have after 10-15 turns, with the sole condition that I am up in the army strenght. In a game with many AIs, this gives me THOUSANDS of extra gold from the Tribute the AI pays me. It also gives me their cities, later in the game, along with strategical resources and luxuries.
The problem is that AI sees me as a threat even if I don't even know or care about where he is and what he's doing.

Problem 2 : Easy Solutions.

a. AI will never offer tribute to the human player, nor accept anything that the human proposes to him. (Later edit : except peace at no cost, of course). (Doing so would only worsen his position, as the human will make the deal and still continue to destroy him after 10 turns.)

Why this works: AI stands at a loss in the system of tribute. He does not accurately understand his chances during the war. Paying things, including cities, can only help to hasten his demise. Especially when making them for absolutely no logical reason whatsoever.
Tributes are mostly fine right now. Yeah, there's a few ridiculous ones (I have a screenshot of Attila giving me 3000+ gold, GPT, and luxuries, all in the Renaissance), but again, those can be toned down (AI should simply give up less) instead of eliminated altogether, which would be too much. Besides, if I recall correctly, the way peace deals and tributes work now is the AI won't give you future tributes if you make peace and then declare war on them later. I think one of the community testers on G&K (MadDjinn maybe? I forget) said that.
Problem 3 : Paying Something for Nothing.

Let's face it, 99% of the times, the open borders that you sell for 50 gold is completly and absolutely useless for the AI. He doesn't need it, it doesn't help him, he doesn't use it. Getting 50 gold / AI means 500 gold / 10 AI , means 1 Library or 1 Market bought with money obtained for selling nothing. This can only hurt the chances of success of the AI.

Problem 3 : Easy Solution.

AI will ONLY trade Open Borders for Open Borders and nothing else. That is simple, effective, logical, and sensible. Reasons not to do this : NONE!

Fine with me. I can understand them paying for an initial Open Borders agreement for exploration purposes, but it's kind of silly that a civ across the world will continue paying for it when they don't even need it.
Problem 4 : Bad Trades.

Imagine you're playing Duel against 1 other good player. At some point, he has 2 resources of FURS. He offers you the deal : you give him 240 gold and he gives you 1 FUR. Do you accept? If you are like me, (good player) , You immediately click REFUSE.
He gets something, but loses nothing. This is a BAD trade.
During the game, you can make TENS of THOUSANDS of gold by selling luxuries. Who profits? It should be obvious. The one who gets to buy Universities, Public Schools, and the like with the money obtained from the deal.

The only exception is if you need that because you a. have unhappiness. and b. will go into "we love the king" . AI already cheats his way to having happiness so he does not need to make such bad trades.

Problem 4 : Easy Solution

a. AI will only buy luxury resource IF : 1) he has unhappiness. 2) He will have "We love the King" in the CAPITAL.
Too stringent. Makes having surplus luxury resources mostly pointless, since the AI rarely is unhappy, and "We Love the King Day" isn't a game-changer anyway.
The things above are easy, sensible, logical, rational, help the task difficulty, increase fun of play, and there's no reason not to do what I propose. More to come.
No, there is a reason to NOT do some of these things. They would make GPT and surplus luxuries useless in diplomacy, and would make being on the winning side of a war pointless for non-warmongers (it's frustrating when the AI idiotically DoWs you and drags you into a war, so I deserve tribute for not kicking their ass when they start to lose it). Some of these ideas are still decent, but I think you take some of them too far. In the end, the AI might fare somewhat better, but it won't radically change things. The AI will still need the massive bonuses it gets on higher difficulties to compete, and will still be at a disadvantage in combat.
 
machival: Your argument, in essence, is to simplify the game in order for the AI to play it better.

However, I believe you are throwing the baby out with the bathwater. You wish to have a simpler game, but the AI issue is not the that the AI is too complex, but exactly that the AI is too simple. Perhaps you are arguing that the complexity of the AI should match the complexity of the game, and with that I can agree, but I would vastly prefer to increase the complexity of the AI rather than reduce the complexity of the game.

I do not believe that your 'solutions' are anything of the kind.

Phil: I do not believe that indices would be that difficult to implement properly, if you use an iterative theoretical-empirical model.

Success in battle can be calculated several ways, and it would depend on where, exactly, numbers are placed in the various indices. One method is ratio of damage inflicted to damage taken. If you program the AI to always focus-fire its attacks, you could substitute the rather easier units destroyed to units lost. Number of cities taken is actually a better metric than you might suspect, if you have absolute number of cities in a strategic index.

But, more to the point, you could put _all_ of them into an index. Actually, what I propose (and will create a topic exactly for this right now) is to canvass the readership here to come up with metrics _they_ think are important to determining whether or not someone is winning a war. I will then create an artificial neural network that can take those metrics and give back a probability of 'winning the war'. After that, we can create a training set to train the network, and then use that for the military AI.

Sound good?
 
Problem 1 : Massive Gold Theft Exploit.

Problem 1: Easy solutions

a. When trading, AI will NEVER put ANY value on Gold Per Turn AND it will NEVER put ANY value on Luxuries unless his happiness level is <0.
A better solution is to lower (rather than eliminate) the value the AI put's on GPT and luxuries, dependant on difficulty level. So at Prince, your cotton is worth 240 gold to an AI at standard speed, but on Deity at the same speed, it's only worth 120 and intermediate difficulty levels have a sliding scale. 120 gold is arbitrary in this post, it could be another amount, while maintaining the principle.

Additionally, at Prince, standard speed, 10gpt could be worth 300 gold, but at Deity, 10gpt it could only be worth 100 gold. Again, arbitrary figures, but the principle stands.

This way, the problem is ameliorated, whilst still allowing lux sales and without having to completely eliminate the option to sell gpt, which is sometimes a legitimate requirement in-game.

Problem 2 : Irrational War Tributes
The problem is that AI sees me as a threat even if I don't even know or care about where he is and what he's doing.

Problem 2 : Easy Solutions.

a. AI will never offer tribute to the human player, nor accept anything that the human proposes to him. (Later edit : except peace at no cost, of course). (Doing so would only worsen his position, as the human will make the deal and still continue to destroy him after 10 turns.)[/COLOR]
A better solution is for the AI to judge the threat you represent and therefore the tribute to offer, based not just on your military strength, but by how close your units are to the AI's cities and how many units you have close. In addition, the AI should consider how many other wars you are currently in, as war with everybody diminishes your ability to effectively war against anybody. The basic mechanics for this are already in the game so it should be relatively easy to modify the AIs threat analysis like this.

Problem 3 : Paying Something for Nothing.

Problem 3 : Easy Solution.

AI will ONLY trade Open Borders for Open Borders and nothing else. That is simple, effective, logical, and sensible. Reasons not to do this : NONE!
A better solution isn't really required here, as there isn't really a problem to start with. I have played Civ5 for over 1700 hours and I have seen the AIs make perfectly good use of open borders, both for them to scout your lands and for troop movement. I disagree with you that OB is useless to the AI and I say that it is sometimes more valuable to have 50 gold, than it is to have AI open borders in return for your own.

A potentially better solution might be to have the AI value your OB less, relative to how much of your land they have scouted already and how soon/much they intend to use your land to move troops.

As the game stands now though, I think OB selling is fine, as relationships change throughout the game and you will not always get 50 gold for OB. Sometimes the AI will offer as little as 5 gold.

Problem 4 : Bad Trades.

He gets something, but loses nothing. This is a BAD trade.
During the game, you can make TENS of THOUSANDS of gold by selling luxuries. Who profits?

Problem 4 : Easy Solution

a. AI will only buy luxury resource IF : 1) he has unhappiness. 2) He will have "We love the King" in the CAPITAL.
Again, I disagree here. Excess happiness can be useful to the AI, in both helping to speed them towards another golden age (where they will get back all the money they paid you for your lux) and also for AI culture where they have chosen the "Mandate of Heaven" policy which gives them 50% of excess happiness added as culture p/turn. "Mandate of Heaven" can be very powerful if you have lots of happiness and it is in the interests of the AIs who are trying for culture win to get as much happiness as they can.

AIs are invariably rich, so the relative cost to them of buying your lux, is far outweighed by the benefit they get and therefore no problem exists here to require a solution.
 
In order for things to start improving, I am posting some things and maybe people who are in charge will learn something. As a chess master and computer strategy games expert, I know what I'm talking about. I don't know how can AI combat performance improve directly. I do now how to hugely improve it's overall performance via improvement of economical and diplomatical features.

Well, I'm certainly no chess master. But I know a thing or two about Civilization V.

I'm sorry to say, but your suggestions would do absolutely nothing for improving the AI. I will provide a simple answer as to why.

The AI already has happiness bonuses and reduced upkeep costs that are not available to the player. It would be of absolutely no benefit to the AI to save up those 7, 14, perhaps 28 GPT when they can easily get up to 400 GPT in late mid game. If you see an AI broke, it's temporary as they are (most probably) paying tribute to someone.
Even with perfect GPT management, one that would "enable" AIs to burn their money into purchasing buildings (one of the changes that would really boost their ability to win), AIs would still have an advantage in both happiness and GPT over the human player.

The benefit of the infamous "last luxury for 240 GPT" is also blown out of proportions, as 4 happiness can be easily converted to much more than 240 gold or 8 gold per turn. If you don't know how, feel free to ask.

The only thing that the current trade system really gives to the player is an option to trade anything, everything he has - for money. And the amounts that can be gained by these trades are actually miniscule compared to what well-established (not even particularly wide) empires can produce in GPT without even doing these trades.
 
I'm sorry to say, but your suggestions would do absolutely nothing for improving the AI.

Not directly. Indirectly it will, because the human opponent(s) will have less gold. The side effect is that computers will have better chances.

The AI already has happiness bonuses and reduced upkeep costs that are not available to the player. It would be of absolutely no benefit to the AI to save up those 7, 14, perhaps 28 GPT when they can easily get up to 400 GPT in late mid game.

You are missing my point. What is important is that the human does not have the means to obtain his gold via cheap tricks and foolish AI actions. It doesn't matter for him to give money away that much, but for you to take that money, it does!

The benefit of the infamous "last luxury for 240 GPT" is also blown out of proportions, as 4 happiness can be easily converted to much more than 240 gold or 8 gold per turn. If you don't know how, feel free to ask.

I do not know what are you are reffering to. I assume it's not Golden Ages as that would be too obvious. Please tell. (edit: if it is GA, then the thing is that it takes much too long for it to have the impact that getting easy money has)



My conclusion seeing the reactions to my topic is that I understand that my view is in minority. So be it. I assume people find it fun enough to defeat a silly AI then to actually have a challange that isn't ten times everything at start for the AI and then everything downhill.

I am very dissapointed by this. It's no wonder they don't change anything, there are too few people asking for it. :sad:

I can only hope some modder will understand.
 
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