cckerberos
Chieftain
- Joined
- Nov 2, 2005
- Messages
- 41
Treif is a Jewish term; the Islamic term is haraam. Are you sure that consumption of pork was prohibited in pre-Islam Carthage and Persia?NickSD said:
Huge Europe/Middle east map, 11 civs (84x52)
- Thread starter Lehawk
- Start date
I'm Jewish but wasn't familiar with the Islamic term. Thanks.
Consumption of pork wasn't prohibited pre-Islam. But since Lehawk can't program pigs to disappear when Islam is founded, I think he should just replace them with sheep.
Thanks.
Nick
Consumption of pork wasn't prohibited pre-Islam. But since Lehawk can't program pigs to disappear when Islam is founded, I think he should just replace them with sheep.
Thanks.
Nick
NickSD said:
Actually, I wasn't aware that I had put pigs there. I should've only had sheep, so I'll so through and get rid of the stragglers. Thanks for the input!
NickSD said:
I just made a topic on this subject. I tried alot of things to get it to work, with no luck.
Thanks for replying!
I left more input here
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=3297223#post3297223
playing the map as England as we speak!
I left more input here
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=3297223#post3297223
playing the map as England as we speak!
seamus75
Warlord
Lehawk, I must say I absoluely love this map 
.
I'm not much a random map player - for some reason Earth-based maps seem to be more fun. So you can imagine how excited I was to be able to play as a European - finally. Most other maps just squeeze em in there. My biggest concerns were with Carthage, but it seems as though those issues will be addressed in v3 - can't wait!
Any thoughts on putting your skills to work on Asia & Oceana?
.I'm not much a random map player - for some reason Earth-based maps seem to be more fun. So you can imagine how excited I was to be able to play as a European - finally. Most other maps just squeeze em in there. My biggest concerns were with Carthage, but it seems as though those issues will be addressed in v3 - can't wait!
Any thoughts on putting your skills to work on Asia & Oceana?
Hey, I noticed one glaring problem that I just HAD to mention.
Though turkey is extremely mountainous, central turkey is extremely productive as well. I just finished up a world civ class (pesky gen ed requirements) at my university and we learned for some time about the byzantine empire. Here I have a quote for you straight out of the textbook.
There is then a map that shows the swath of land taken by the seljuk turks, and it happens to be the area of all of central turkey. They didn't even bother trying to conquer the coastlines.
So somehow, this region of the world was extremely prosperous and must have had rich soil in order for it to be the breadbasket for the byzantine empire. (which at the time, still was a major world power). So, if you could somehow work that into your map, thatd make it much more accurate, plus make a large region open for settlement
Oh yea! Is anyone planning on making a middle ages scenario for just europe, like there was in civ 3?
Though turkey is extremely mountainous, central turkey is extremely productive as well. I just finished up a world civ class (pesky gen ed requirements) at my university and we learned for some time about the byzantine empire. Here I have a quote for you straight out of the textbook.
There is then a map that shows the swath of land taken by the seljuk turks, and it happens to be the area of all of central turkey. They didn't even bother trying to conquer the coastlines.
So somehow, this region of the world was extremely prosperous and must have had rich soil in order for it to be the breadbasket for the byzantine empire. (which at the time, still was a major world power). So, if you could somehow work that into your map, thatd make it much more accurate, plus make a large region open for settlement
Oh yea! Is anyone planning on making a middle ages scenario for just europe, like there was in civ 3?
Ad Hominem
Warlord
Actually, Asia Minor was not the breadbasket of the Byzantines, but their main recruiting grounds. The breadbasket was Thrace, the most prosperous (tax revenue-wise) part northern Greece, Crete, the Aegean Islands and Cyprus.
The place - the Anatolian plateau - is (and was back then) mountainous and fairly poor. The rich part is (and was) the Aegean coast (and secondarily the black sea coast - that remained in the hands of the byzantines as well) and the Turks certainly didn't neglect it - it's just that the Byzantines took those parts back very soon after Manzikert.
Also, your civ class ain’t much worth if is says that the Byzantine army was “annihilated” at Manzikert – the losses were minimal (perhaps barely in the thousands) but the real problem was that it came due to treason and that the emperor was captured.
The ensuing civil strife led to the demise of the Roman power. Despite that, Roman authority bounced back and the Byzantines controlled the western part of Asia Minor once more. But they were cut off the Anatolian plateau, which was back then home to the most hardened troops they could amass.
The place - the Anatolian plateau - is (and was back then) mountainous and fairly poor. The rich part is (and was) the Aegean coast (and secondarily the black sea coast - that remained in the hands of the byzantines as well) and the Turks certainly didn't neglect it - it's just that the Byzantines took those parts back very soon after Manzikert.
Also, your civ class ain’t much worth if is says that the Byzantine army was “annihilated” at Manzikert – the losses were minimal (perhaps barely in the thousands) but the real problem was that it came due to treason and that the emperor was captured.
The ensuing civil strife led to the demise of the Roman power. Despite that, Roman authority bounced back and the Byzantines controlled the western part of Asia Minor once more. But they were cut off the Anatolian plateau, which was back then home to the most hardened troops they could amass.
A historical textbook is written by a historian, then sent to a publisher where it is then sent to usually 3 or more other history scholars who confirm the information and send it back to the publisher. The publisher then sends the copy back to the first historian who edits and fixes it. This means it goes through atleast 3 revisions and is seen by atleast 4 scholars.
What I'm trying to say is that if the byzantines weren't defeated soundly in turkey, 4 historians wouldn't have let it slide. If it wasn't an important source of food and troops, it wouldn't have been allowed to be published. Simple as that.
Just incase, I did some research online, where I can only find one source that agrees with you. The majority agree with my textbook.
You are correct that the seljuk turks eventually did gain the coast lands and then did lose it again.
As I searched online I kept finding sources over and over again that said the Byzantines lost important sources of food and troops due to that battle. From what I can find, the soil in anatolia is poor, but a large amount of it is great for animals. Today one-third of Turkeys sheep and three-quarters of its Angora goats are raised there. If modern turkey relies on it for a majority of their animal resources, the ancient people probably relied on it just as much, if not more.
You were right on a lot of things, and I think I found the answer to why my book said it was important for food (the book never said 'breadbasket', I was just using a term to describe the importance of the region.) But, for the results of the battle (which is the least important part of this whole conversation) there are 3 possibilities: A) you are wrong, B) the historians who wrote my textbooks are wrong, or C) there is enough debate over the topic that both points of view can be published and neither side can be proven fully. I'm inclined to believe scholarly sources over internet sources though. So unless you have something out of a historical journal or other similar source that sides with you, I'm going to have to stick with my textbook.
Either way, who won what battle when and where isn't important for this. The point is that central turkey shouldnt be useless, it should have possibly important sheep and goat resources. Southeastern anatolia is barren pretty much though. Eastern anatolia isnt much of a food surplus region either, but not as barren as the southeastern region.
What I'm trying to say is that if the byzantines weren't defeated soundly in turkey, 4 historians wouldn't have let it slide. If it wasn't an important source of food and troops, it wouldn't have been allowed to be published. Simple as that.
Just incase, I did some research online, where I can only find one source that agrees with you. The majority agree with my textbook.
You are correct that the seljuk turks eventually did gain the coast lands and then did lose it again.
As I searched online I kept finding sources over and over again that said the Byzantines lost important sources of food and troops due to that battle. From what I can find, the soil in anatolia is poor, but a large amount of it is great for animals. Today one-third of Turkeys sheep and three-quarters of its Angora goats are raised there. If modern turkey relies on it for a majority of their animal resources, the ancient people probably relied on it just as much, if not more.
You were right on a lot of things, and I think I found the answer to why my book said it was important for food (the book never said 'breadbasket', I was just using a term to describe the importance of the region.) But, for the results of the battle (which is the least important part of this whole conversation) there are 3 possibilities: A) you are wrong, B) the historians who wrote my textbooks are wrong, or C) there is enough debate over the topic that both points of view can be published and neither side can be proven fully. I'm inclined to believe scholarly sources over internet sources though. So unless you have something out of a historical journal or other similar source that sides with you, I'm going to have to stick with my textbook.
Either way, who won what battle when and where isn't important for this. The point is that central turkey shouldnt be useless, it should have possibly important sheep and goat resources. Southeastern anatolia is barren pretty much though. Eastern anatolia isnt much of a food surplus region either, but not as barren as the southeastern region.
I have released version #3, see original post for information. I couldn't find pigs or cows in Africa or the Near East in the latest version so I may have already took them out.
I couldn't figure out how to let you pick leaders without screwing up starting locations so that couldn't be fixed for now.
I couldn't figure out how to let you pick leaders without screwing up starting locations so that couldn't be fixed for now.
Drogear
Prince
The chartage mod does not work.
Playing first game as England, think the map is great for them taking into account that there is not vary much room for expansion. Have 4 cities on the island and 1 i scandinavia.
Playing first game as England, think the map is great for them taking into account that there is not vary much room for expansion. Have 4 cities on the island and 1 i scandinavia.
Tunch Khan
King
About the central turkey geography; I'm not a scientist but i lived there for around 6 years and traveled across the plateu called Anatolia (Asia Minor) and can share my observations if you care;
Anatolia is a highland seperated from the mild Mediterranean climate by Tauros Mountains in the south, and sheltered from the rough Siberian colds coming through Russia by Caucasian and Pontic Mountain ranges. It's rugged in the west, with hills and mountains cut in valleys by Gediz and Menderes rivers that flow to Aegean Sea. Kizilirmak, Yesilirmak and Sakarya are other major rivers that flow to Black Sea, creating large arable zones perfectly fit for grain production. Moving toward the east; the altitude rises and valleys become steeper as mountains rise until they form the majestic Mount Ararat on the easternmost point. These glacier covered mountains provide the sources for two major rivers that has given birth to countless civilizations throughout history: Euphrates and Tigris.
I don't want to go through every minor detail here, but if you want an ideal simulation of Anatolia in limited game tile description; you would have graaslands in the coasts, seperating plains through lines of mountain ranges in the south and the north, and hill ranges parallel to the mountains seperating coastline in the west (vertical towards Aegean Sea). Depending on your space and design, Mount Ida (Kaz Dagi) to the north of Izmir, right below Dardanelles strait; Mount Olympos (Uludag) south of Marmara Sea; and Bolu Dagi, to the east of Marmara Sea could be added for a nice flavor.
The above mentioned rivers are important to place, and those concerned about space should at least add Sakarya and Kizilirmak rivers along with Tigris and Euphrates. Lake Van to the east is a major lake not to be skipped, while the Tuz Golu (Salt Lake) is optional as it dries up in the summer, but you can place it along with other minor lakes of the south west.
The mountain ranges in the north are covered with thick coat of forests as well as parts of north Thrace (west of Marmara), while Aegean and Mediterranean coasts are mostly covered with pine forests. Originally the entire penninsula was covered by forests in history but through heavy human settlement and widespread animal husbandry (especially goats, see Angora goats) the bulk of the highlands have become deforested.
Grain is a major product of Anatolia along with animal husbandry which should give plenty of sheep, chicken and cows to the highland plains.
Aegean and Marmara coastlines are famous for quality wines, grapes and olives (not a civ4 resource).
Mediterranean coastline around the rich and warm grasslands of Adana region (Iskenderun Korfezi - Alexandretta Bay) is a major cotton plantation area (again not a civ4 resource), where rice and sugar beets are also cultivated.
Black Sea coastline, which is filled with fisheries are perfect for peanuts, tea and tobacco (none available in civ4).
The area around Marmara Sea is very rich in marbles, hence the name Marmara (marmora) derives from marble itself.
Stones are probably one thing you can find in every part of Anatolia as there's plenty of hills and mountains to quarry.
East of Marmara, on the mountains of Black Sea coast, coal is abundant. Also in the mountains of the eastern Anatolia, copper, iron and aluminum are being mined since the early records of history (except for Uranium which is a later discovery, yet still plenty of resources exist in the same region). Copper is also to be found in the western hills and mined along with gold and silver.
Silk has been a major export material of Bursa, just south of Marmara Sea and an important resource for the textile industry. Bursa silks were a heavily sought product in the markets of Europe for many centuries.
Salt is needless to say a natural product of the massive Salt Lake that lies in the center of the highlands. It is also harvested from the minor salty lakes along the Aegean coast.
Horses have first been domesticated by the Turks in Central Asian steppes, but soon became a major commodity of the ancient world; Perisan; Mesopotamian and Anatolian civilizations being the first to utilize them in wars pulling chariots, while the nomadic steppe peoples; turks; mongols and scythians were natural born horse archers.
Potassium nitrate, commonly known as Saltpeter, can be found along the Aegean hills or the mountains to the east.
Another major production of the whole region is various kinds of fruits (apples troughout the lands and fine oranges and lemons to the Mediterranean coastline), hovever the only fruit in civ4 is banana which is native to South East Asian jungles.
Like the tobacco, corn is another foreign resource to Anatolia brought from the Americas after the age of discoveries.
Along with it's unique strategic location as a bridgehead and crossroads between East and the West, North and the South, Christianity and Islam; all of these resources both natural and mineral, should be easy to explain the major conflicts on the Anatolian Penninsula through the ages and why it was the homeland to the first civilizations as well as how they grow to become mighty empires. The riches of Anatolia draw many colonizers and invedors from Celts to Greeks; from Persians to Romans; from Arabs to Vikings; from Turks to Crusaders; all of them fighting their way into Anatolia, settling and establishing their own cities, founding empires and fighting the next wave of invaders over and over again for many centuries with the last major war for grabbing Anatolian land fought between Turks against British and French as well as their allies Greeks and Armenians between 1919 and 1922.
For game balance purposes you can take some of them out of course, but the real life is not so perfectly balanced as we know and those who would prefer historical and geographical accuracy should be given the option.
The first war ever recorded in history was the Battle of Kadesh fought between Hittites and Egyptians (Ramses II). The peace agreement written in both languages that established the borders of both countries can be seen on the wall of main hall of United Nations; (a gift from Turkish Government).
Anatolia is a highland seperated from the mild Mediterranean climate by Tauros Mountains in the south, and sheltered from the rough Siberian colds coming through Russia by Caucasian and Pontic Mountain ranges. It's rugged in the west, with hills and mountains cut in valleys by Gediz and Menderes rivers that flow to Aegean Sea. Kizilirmak, Yesilirmak and Sakarya are other major rivers that flow to Black Sea, creating large arable zones perfectly fit for grain production. Moving toward the east; the altitude rises and valleys become steeper as mountains rise until they form the majestic Mount Ararat on the easternmost point. These glacier covered mountains provide the sources for two major rivers that has given birth to countless civilizations throughout history: Euphrates and Tigris.
I don't want to go through every minor detail here, but if you want an ideal simulation of Anatolia in limited game tile description; you would have graaslands in the coasts, seperating plains through lines of mountain ranges in the south and the north, and hill ranges parallel to the mountains seperating coastline in the west (vertical towards Aegean Sea). Depending on your space and design, Mount Ida (Kaz Dagi) to the north of Izmir, right below Dardanelles strait; Mount Olympos (Uludag) south of Marmara Sea; and Bolu Dagi, to the east of Marmara Sea could be added for a nice flavor.
The above mentioned rivers are important to place, and those concerned about space should at least add Sakarya and Kizilirmak rivers along with Tigris and Euphrates. Lake Van to the east is a major lake not to be skipped, while the Tuz Golu (Salt Lake) is optional as it dries up in the summer, but you can place it along with other minor lakes of the south west.
The mountain ranges in the north are covered with thick coat of forests as well as parts of north Thrace (west of Marmara), while Aegean and Mediterranean coasts are mostly covered with pine forests. Originally the entire penninsula was covered by forests in history but through heavy human settlement and widespread animal husbandry (especially goats, see Angora goats) the bulk of the highlands have become deforested.
Grain is a major product of Anatolia along with animal husbandry which should give plenty of sheep, chicken and cows to the highland plains.
Aegean and Marmara coastlines are famous for quality wines, grapes and olives (not a civ4 resource).
Mediterranean coastline around the rich and warm grasslands of Adana region (Iskenderun Korfezi - Alexandretta Bay) is a major cotton plantation area (again not a civ4 resource), where rice and sugar beets are also cultivated.
Black Sea coastline, which is filled with fisheries are perfect for peanuts, tea and tobacco (none available in civ4).
The area around Marmara Sea is very rich in marbles, hence the name Marmara (marmora) derives from marble itself.
Stones are probably one thing you can find in every part of Anatolia as there's plenty of hills and mountains to quarry.
East of Marmara, on the mountains of Black Sea coast, coal is abundant. Also in the mountains of the eastern Anatolia, copper, iron and aluminum are being mined since the early records of history (except for Uranium which is a later discovery, yet still plenty of resources exist in the same region). Copper is also to be found in the western hills and mined along with gold and silver.
Silk has been a major export material of Bursa, just south of Marmara Sea and an important resource for the textile industry. Bursa silks were a heavily sought product in the markets of Europe for many centuries.
Salt is needless to say a natural product of the massive Salt Lake that lies in the center of the highlands. It is also harvested from the minor salty lakes along the Aegean coast.
Horses have first been domesticated by the Turks in Central Asian steppes, but soon became a major commodity of the ancient world; Perisan; Mesopotamian and Anatolian civilizations being the first to utilize them in wars pulling chariots, while the nomadic steppe peoples; turks; mongols and scythians were natural born horse archers.
Potassium nitrate, commonly known as Saltpeter, can be found along the Aegean hills or the mountains to the east.
Another major production of the whole region is various kinds of fruits (apples troughout the lands and fine oranges and lemons to the Mediterranean coastline), hovever the only fruit in civ4 is banana which is native to South East Asian jungles.
Like the tobacco, corn is another foreign resource to Anatolia brought from the Americas after the age of discoveries.
Along with it's unique strategic location as a bridgehead and crossroads between East and the West, North and the South, Christianity and Islam; all of these resources both natural and mineral, should be easy to explain the major conflicts on the Anatolian Penninsula through the ages and why it was the homeland to the first civilizations as well as how they grow to become mighty empires. The riches of Anatolia draw many colonizers and invedors from Celts to Greeks; from Persians to Romans; from Arabs to Vikings; from Turks to Crusaders; all of them fighting their way into Anatolia, settling and establishing their own cities, founding empires and fighting the next wave of invaders over and over again for many centuries with the last major war for grabbing Anatolian land fought between Turks against British and French as well as their allies Greeks and Armenians between 1919 and 1922.
For game balance purposes you can take some of them out of course, but the real life is not so perfectly balanced as we know and those who would prefer historical and geographical accuracy should be given the option.
The first war ever recorded in history was the Battle of Kadesh fought between Hittites and Egyptians (Ramses II). The peace agreement written in both languages that established the borders of both countries can be seen on the wall of main hall of United Nations; (a gift from Turkish Government).
Boy, was I ignorant of Turkey!
This makes me wonder if I should (for version 4 due Dec 10ish):
- Include Turks into the map
- Make Turkey and parts east way more habitable.
- Maybe even remove the land bridge between Turkey mainland and Europe.
I didn't know it was so green around there. Definitely going to have to include the green, and since multiplayer supports 12 civs I can add one more civ. hmm.
Thanks for the input. I will have to do something about this.
This makes me wonder if I should (for version 4 due Dec 10ish):
- Include Turks into the map
- Make Turkey and parts east way more habitable.
- Maybe even remove the land bridge between Turkey mainland and Europe.
I didn't know it was so green around there. Definitely going to have to include the green, and since multiplayer supports 12 civs I can add one more civ. hmm.
Thanks for the input. I will have to do something about this.
Tunch Khan
King
Thanks for the nice map and if you ever need anything please don't hesitate to either mail or PM me. I have some information in my sig as per database you might need to add a new civ, or the Turkish Mod to add them directly to your map. Looking forward to play your map. Cheers.Lehawk said:
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