HUI Game #1 - Pacal II

[Shafi]

Round 1 - "To Rush or Not to Rush" - 4000 BC to 3160 BC
Round 2 - "A few problems to Ponder about" - 3160 BC to 2440 BC
Round 3 - "The Fall of Moscow" - 2440 BC to 775 BC
Round 4 - "Finishing off Cathy" - 775 BC to 250 AD
Round 5 - "It's all about the economy" - 250 AD to 940 AD
Round 6 - " The Zulu War" - 940 AD - 1250 AD
Round 7 - "The 2nd Zulu War" - 1250 AD to 1585 AD
Round 8 - "The Race to Space" - 1585 AD to 1911 AD

So here we are finally ready to kick things off, Well I am pretty eager to get this off the ground so after only around 6 hours of keeping it open for the vote I have decided to get started on Game 1 of the HUI series.

I am not a very skilled player, in fact I don’t have too much experience playing Civ, so this is as much for my improvement as well as a learning platform for others, now we will be taking things slow to keep all the advice pouring in, as otherwise we maybe chalking up a heavy number of losses.

Please follow the same protocol as the ALC series, in terms of shadowing etc.

Everyone is invited to offer opinions and advice, and to make your own attempt at playing the same game. But if you do play a "shadow game", I kindly request that you refrain from posting spoilers--i.e. any facts or even hints about the map, opponents, and so on--before I'm there myself. I'm trying to play the game as authentically as possible.

You can find links to other HUI games here at the HUI bullpen or just leave comments suggestions on what you would like to see in the next game.

Without further a due, on to game 1 of the HUI series, well here’s the game settings, nothing fancy just a regular continents map @ normal speed.

Spoiler :

Our leader of choice for the very first game,

Spoiler :

Pacal II of the great Maya empire, he is Financial & expansive which means …. Well definitely extra commerce (gotta love financial) and extra health and 25% faster production of workers as well as double production speed of Granaries & Harbors.

Now for the UU & UB of our great Civilization,

Spoiler :

The Holkan, a spearman that is immune to first strikes and does not require a resource, knowledge of BW & Hunting is enough to build these buggers ….

Now are they any good for a very early rush??? Please educate me, would be very interested to know.

Spoiler :

Wow, a Colosseum with 2 extra happy. I don’t know about you but I am thinking Construction here I come … cos with that extra health from expansive and the happiness from these babies we are talking some serious early growth potential.

And finally the starting location,

Spoiler :

Hmmm … Nice, Corn, Wheat & Cows. Well that’s a lot of food. Whats the verdict? Do I settle in place or explore?
I am thinking move the warrior 1 south west for a better look at terrain. I can also see some flood plains down there, you think we should settle 1S to claim the flood plains? We don’t know what lies to the north ….

I guess I am inclined to settle 1S even though I am usually a settle in place kind of guy.

In terms of tech path I am thinking Agriculture / AH / BW, any other thoughts on this?

First build worker and then warrior, warrior, Settler, worker – Thoughts please.

 

[Shafi]

Forgot to attach the save for the start, anyway here you go.

 

[Hereditary Rule]

Settle in Place

I like the build order.

I'd consider teching Agri, Bronze, Hunt, AH

I'm just a fan of early chopping. This order gets your UU out ASAP, and makes AH cheaper via having teched both Hunting and Agri. The choping can be used for Settler/Worker or Henge which is easy to get with Pacal.

 

[UWHabs]

Settle in place will be more than fine. Wheat/Corn/cows is a strong enough capital, don't really need floodplains yet. Keep those for the second city.

Agri/AH/BW is a definite starting tech sequence.

Build worker, warriors until grow to size 3, then settler.

Holkan rush is doable, but only if you have a close neighbour, and they're not creative or protective. I don't rank them too high, although they are nice in that you know for sure that you can avoid archery until late, since they're a good enough anti-barb unit.

The main other point early (since this is a "how to improve" game), is pay attention to what you improve early. In this case, once the worker comes out, you can either improve the what or corn. Go wheat first, since when improved, it's 5 food/1 hammer/1 commerce, instead of just 5 food for the corn (since it's not irrigated). If AH comes in before you're done the first farm (I forget the timing), then you're also better to improve the cow second, since pastures are shorter than farms, and improved 4/2/0 is better than 5/0/0.

 

[Slvynn]

1. I dont like normal speed too fast, wont give less deep lessons than epic.
2. Holkan is awesome (the prob is that speed is normal and AI will get Axes pretty quick), but dont like axes. It have somewhat immunity to some archer's feature, first strikes, it can get CR promotion, and require nothing to build.
3. I advise you to Go Agri then Bronze. You can benefit greatly from your cheap worker and 2nd worker chopping, and then chopping settler/defence and soon being able to improve at double speed. Use your "Expansive".
4. Build worker, tehc Agri, then BW, improve wheat, then chop 2nd worker, let both workers chop settler and holkan and settle this way your 2nd city early choosing best spot towards closest rushable AI.
5. After BW should be Hunt then AH, then Granaries (/2 price due Exp)/Cottages (Financial) (Pottery) to get some benefits

 

[Slvynn]

Agri/AH/BW is a definite starting tech sequence.

Build worker, warriors until grow to size 3, then settler.

I must disagree. Worker > Worker (chopped) > being at size 1. When aviable, Holkan being swapped with Settler at turns when your workers finish chops (So you get both city growth and hammers for settler in same time. Is definite sequence for pacal.
Settler should be offencive and greedy and settle best resource stockpile (horses/copper if any/needed), food/prod great spot towards next rival. You wanna rushing with this guy, he is very good at it. Consider 2nd city as Your 1st Army Assembly line.
Agri>BW>Hunt >AH>Wheel>Pottery is definite sequence too. One should use his traits, and pottery is ranked very hight for pacal, unlocking 2 boni features for this leader.

 

[madscientist]

I would settle in place and go agriculture/BW/hunting/AH. That get's you 2 good grain resources, early defense with the UU, and hunting will speed up the AH research time.

I would explore south to see where the river goes, looks like you have some floodplains there.

 

[Shafi]

Settle in Place

I like the build order.

I'd consider teching Agri, Bronze, Hunt, AH

I'm just a fan of early chopping. This order gets your UU out ASAP, and makes AH cheaper via having teched both Hunting and Agri. The choping can be used for Settler/Worker or Henge which is easy to get with Pacal.

I find the suggestion on the tech order interesting, i priorotised AH for two reasons,
1) Cow in the BFC
2) I like chariots, there extra movement is very nice in dealing with those pesky barbs & i definitely like chariot rushes - but theres no guarantee that we will find horses around so i'm definitely considering your suggetion
Would like to know what everyone else thinks on this.

Settle in place will be more than fine. Wheat/Corn/cows is a strong enough capital, don't really need floodplains yet. Keep those for the second city.

Agri/AH/BW is a definite starting tech sequence.

Build worker, warriors until grow to size 3, then settler.

Holkan rush is doable, but only if you have a close neighbour, and they're not creative or protective. I don't rank them too high, although they are nice in that you know for sure that you can avoid archery until late, since they're a good enough anti-barb unit.

The main other point early (since this is a "how to improve" game), is pay attention to what you improve early. In this case, once the worker comes out, you can either improve the what or corn. Go wheat first, since when improved, it's 5 food/1 hammer/1 commerce, instead of just 5 food for the corn (since it's not irrigated). If AH comes in before you're done the first farm (I forget the timing), then you're also better to improve the cow second, since pastures are shorter than farms, and improved 4/2/0 is better than 5/0/0.

Thanks. Appreciate all the more detailed advice on tile improvements etc. i'm sure lots of others would too, with regard to growing to size 3 before settler, not convinced, i would like to get out as many cities as soon as i can.

Would appreciate everyone elses views on this as well.

 

[Slvynn]

I am sorry but not using early chopping ability and cheap workers is kinda waste of Pacal

Holkans are great against barbs, chariots dont get defencive bonuses, thus lose ALOT to Holkans, you can always get Forest II promo

Pacal have not immortals, and not every leader should prioritize chariots. You should prioritize REXing, and for that you need fast chops.

Delaying chopping and delaying Holkans will make you net loses, (proved fact) You can get settler ans 2 workers much earlier if you prioritize BW and Holkans than if you improve that cow.

 

[michmbk]

I like AG/BW to open. AH isn't as necessary since you have the wheat and corn for growth. From there, a bit map dependent. AH or hunting might be useful for defense if you don't have nearby copper, or you could head right toward pottery for all those nice cottages that get extra benefit with FIN.

I like worker first, then growth phase (you'll grow fast with wheat and corn), to size 3 or 4, and then chopping out a worker followed by a settler. With EXP, I usually like to get the workers out before the settlers, since they are pretty quick to produce. Again, map dependent. Nearby neighbors means you have to race to the good spots, but if there's a lot of land, you can grow first and then settle the land. The benefit to waiting to size 4 before a settler means you can keep spitting them out - depending on the map, sometimes it's worthwhile to have your capital produce workers & settlers at size 4 until you've completely crashed the economy. This looks like a good bureau capital from just what we can see, so you may want a different city to be a worker/settler pump, but keep in mind getting one settler out earlier isn't always optimal - I typically prefer having a good settler pump to just keep producing them.

With Pacal, I usually like heavy REX, loads of workers and loads of cottages - best way to max his traits and UB. You can aggressively REX as FIN will help you pay the bills a bit as you do, and aggressive rexing means big cities with the extra health and happiness.

 

[Shafi]

1. I dont like normal speed too fast, wont give less deep lessons than epic.

I beg to differ, i have played on Epic and find it lends itself much more towards early rushing and i think by pulling off an early rush, i can quite easily overcome other weaknesses. Playing on Normal speed it's a little harder to rush and i may have to play pretty well to pull off a win.

Besides i'm so used to playing on Normal now, i just could'nt get myself to play on Epic

I would explore south to see where the river goes, looks like you have some floodplains there.

Yup, definitely some flood plains down there, and i love flood plains

So, south it is for our warrior.

 

[Shafi]

Thank you all for the very helpful advice! It's time for me to hit the sack, its around 10PM in this part of the world.

I will be playing the 1st round tomorrow. So keep those comments coming in.

So far we seem to have a consesus on,

1) Settle in place
2) Tech path - Agri / BW / Hunting / AH

Cheers for now
Shafi

 

[Silu]

As said by some people already, Holkans are good anti-barbs but really blow vs AIs on the offense (despite looking somewhat decent on paper). You don't want your rush to 100% fail if they get a single Axeman, and Holkans still suck vs Archers in reality. This makes REX a very favorable option, as you can finance (FIN), protect (Holkans), support (Workers) and sustain (Granaries) it early and easily, without tech detours.

Ball courts are a bit more situational, if there're alternative happiness options an early Construction isn't necessarily worth it.

 

[erikthecelt]

I am sorry but not using early chopping ability and cheap workers is kinda waste of Pacal

Holkans are great against barbs, chariots dont get defencive bonuses, thus lose ALOT to Holkans, you can always get Forest II promo

Pacal have not immortals, and not every leader should prioritize chariots. You should prioritize REXing, and for that you need fast chops.

Delaying chopping and delaying Holkans will make you net loses, (proved fact) You can get settler ans 2 workers much earlier if you prioritize BW and Holkans than if you improve that cow.

I agree with Slvynn here. BW then Ag, Hunting, AH, Wheel, Pottery is most efficient, effective approach to this set up. Worker, Worker, Holkan (barb protection) Worker then Holkan, Settler spam would be the way to go. One of the common discussions of ways to win at higher levels is the number of workers needed at the start. I suggest that with the objective of learning, you may want to find out how many workers becomes too many at the start. Focus on where you are chopping, think about those lovely riverside cottages powering your expansion drive.

 

[roberteriksson]

Gonna play this one for sure, probably gonna try it out on Emperor and see how that works out. Settle in place, if nothing else for the production.

 

[roberteriksson]

Could you post this as a worldbuilder save as well?

 

[JammerUno]

I'ld take BW before agri, you can have the worker chop out another worker while you tech agri and then get some of those resourceless UUs in stead of warriors while you grow. The worker/worker/holkan/holkan/chopped settler opening seems a little more solid, and it doesn't have high opportunity costs anyway. There's alot of grassland forest there to chop out some quick settlers/workers, so two workers will be good to have.

Can't say I'm a big fan of construction if there's no 'phants around to use it to it's full potential. Catapults are nice, but I'm not a big fan of that era of warfare since it's hard to get any technological advantage to translate to your militairy; there's no real improvement in CR units until maces. I feel it's usually best to go HBR and HA over catapults when warring in that era.

 

[lymond]

Could you post this as a worldbuilder save as well?

thanks, i was going to mention this. almost seems we need a general topic on the board about posting WBs vs. saves. I created my own WB from the OPs save, but it can spoil the start for you if your not careful.

i prefer to play with BUFFY, but it seems everyone uses different versions of BUG so the saves always load unmodded for me. I have BUG installed but not as CustomAssets and don't intend to as that approach - while flexible - conflicts with BUFFY and other mods.

I'm going to try this one out since playing Monarch, while usually a failure for me, will help me move up to Prince at least. Also, I've never played Pacal but always notice he does well as AI when he appears in my games.

 

[Slvynn]

@JammerUno, erikthecelt - thats is good opening too, BW before Ag, imo even better than Ag before BW.

@michmbk - imo key here is to set 2nd city early as possible, then using traits it will give seriuous bonus if made really early, and Pacal can do that really early. New city provide grab for already revealed resources, gives initiative to settle best spot possible and steal it from rival, and adding sagnificant commerce (with fin) early and add production, and most important - FOREST (if not forest then FLOOD PLAINS with all that food/commerce and +2 health). Pacal love them both, he can chop and he can grow cottages on flood plains. With fast granary whip it becomes really powerful early, and cheap workers mean that city will be improved soon.
After 1 settler pop sure its time to give to grow to city, whip granary, and then grow more with double speed.

 

[lymond]

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