Human Capitulation to AI... Why not?!

[MusX]

What do you think of human capitulation to AI. I know AI gives all techs to vassals but it can't be too hard to fix for programmers
Even if I'm vassalized I'm still able to win! Capitulation to AI would give many new experience for single player.
IMO it should be introduced in future in official BTS patch.

and for those who suggest use retire...

Capitulation != Retire

!!

btw. why there aren't any mod with this feature? or maybe I've missed it?

 

[0R4NG3]

I agree, it would make the game more interesting, afterall the AI can capitulate and still win, why shouldn't human be able to do the same?

 

[Gaius Octavius]

It is literally a one-to-three line change in SDK. There is an old mod out there which allows this (sadly, not for BtS 3.13). I suspect the reason it was disallowed was that it's just too easy to take advantage of it. You could "capitulate" every time somebody else attacked you, thereby bringing the whole world into war. Then there's the tech issue.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

The AI can be configured to refuse capitulation if you are at war with other civs that they are friendly/pleased/weaker than/or if you're at war with more than 2 civs.

 

[Minor Annoyance]

...but capitulation doesn't make the master join your wars, it makes you match their diplomatic status. It's when you offer to be a vassal to a friendly empire that they join your wars. So there is no exploit here.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Also you can't Vassalize and then break off when you capitulate. (so less of an exploit, because you have to 'Earn' your freedom)

[Also the AI should be more thoughtful about what techs they DO give to their Vassals... they should only give techs that are more common or are very militarily useful]

 

[Gaius Octavius]

It's too easy to exploit... just think about it.

You're a reasonable power, fairly well along, but are being threatened by some of your rivals. Simply declare war on your nearest friend, who is bigger than you, hold out for about 10 turns, and capitulate. Now you have a protector for the rest of the game, and you can pull off a spaceship/cultural win without worrying as much about someone declaring war on you.

 

[lulu135]

It's too easy to exploit... just think about it.

You're a reasonable power, fairly well along, but are being threatened by some of your rivals. Simply declare war on your nearest friend, who is bigger than you, hold out for about 10 turns, and capitulate. Now you have a protector for the rest of the game, and you can pull off a spaceship/cultural win without worrying as much about someone declaring war on you.

Well, the AI should refuse taking a vassal unless it has something to gain. Just because you want a protector doesn't mean it wants you...
And a permanent alliance does the same thing, is that an exploit too?

 

[MusX]

It's too easy to exploit... just think about it.

You're a reasonable power, fairly well along, but are being threatened by some of your rivals. Simply declare war on your nearest friend, who is bigger than you, hold out for about 10 turns, and capitulate. Now you have a protector for the rest of the game, and you can pull off a spaceship/cultural win without worrying as much about someone declaring war on you.

Even if you got big protector it doesn't means you are invicible. Your protector can attack your neighbour or his friend who has defense pact with your neighbour. And then you can be razed very fast

 

[KrikkitTwo]

^ That's if your 'friend' accepts capitulation. They probably Won't do that until they are twice your size (just like the AI won't offer capitulation until it is 1/2 your size)... try to win when you are 1/2 the population and land area of someone else, who will demand all your resources.

If they are peaceful, they will out tech you

If they are warlike they will get you involved in a lot of wars that you will have to have the troops to defend from

Plus they get to use your poplation for DiploVictory votes.

 

[Gaius Octavius]

Well, the AI should refuse taking a vassal unless it has something to gain. Just because you want a protector doesn't mean it wants you...
And a permanent alliance does the same thing, is that an exploit too?

The AI is not that smart, and cannot possibly ever be without a radical overhaul of the system. It can't analyze international relations and forecast possibilities like a human.

And if you say a permanent alliance does the same thing (which is what I was also thinking), then why do we need human capitulation?

 

[Minor Annoyance]

But under the rules of capitulation you have to be half the size size and population of your master, and stay that way. That's no small disadvantage. Plus they might drag you into a war at a moments notice, they could demand your aluminum or anything else, half your your territory and population adds to their domination victory, and if you do win you still lose have your point to them. Also I don't know in what situation an AI empire takes on a vassal, but in my worst game, I've never seen the become vassal option on the diplomacy screen not be red, so I don't know if you can assume they'll take accept after just ten turns and no losses on your part.
You've laid out a best case scenario and ignored how bad a worst case could be.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

^ Permanent Alliace requires a friend.. you can capitulate to an enemy.

And if the AI doesn't accept Capitulation until you are 1/2 it size, and learns to 'use' its vassals (ie taking all resources that it can use, only giving enough techs so that the vassal isn't falling behind everyone else) Then it would be reasonable... a way to maybe survive a game even if you don't win.

 

[Olleus]

Would it be that hard for the AI to add up the power of all the AIs of which you are at war with and see if that is significantly higher than your power? no, so there is little room for abuse there.

The only real problem I can see is that the AI gifts all of their techs to their vassals, so you could capitulate when you have a more than 50% of your future masters population, get loads of free techs, and then declare independence. That is the one real problem I see, and I'm not sure I can find a way around this other than making the AI treat human vassals as just a normal player and not like a vassal, but that kind of ruins things.

 

[Minor Annoyance]

I don't think a major overhaul of the A.I. would be needed to stop a vassal victory. It just has to know when a vassal is too close to victory and they take everything and give nothing back. Health and happiness would become a huge problem.

 

[Gaius Octavius]

You've laid out a best case scenario and ignored how bad a worst case could be.

Exactly what people do when they talk about the Praetoran being "overpowered," yet conveniently forgetting to mention that if you don't get iron or get it too late, you're out of luck.

You guys are acting as though I don't want human capitulation to be in; quite the contrary, I think you've all laid out excellent points why it should be implemented. Believe it or not (and this may come as a surprise to you ) I did not program this game, so I haven't got a clue what went through the designers' minds when they did it this way. However, I strongly suspect it's due to possible exploits. Krikkitone makes a good point about PAs without realizing it: they require a "good friend," not an enemy. Is this perhaps because it would be too exploitable if you could sign a PA with a casual friend or enemy? Maybe. I don't know.

If you are really curious I suggest you ask Jon Shafer or alexman about it (assuming they still actually visit here, after the debacle last month).

 

[KrikkitTwo]

^ Well a big reason is probably because Human Ordinary Peace Vassals would probably be an exploit

AND

The AI treats their vassals stupidly (one of the major disadvantages of a PA is that the AI side just siphons off ALL techs and gives them to any Vassals we have)

 

[peter450]

Well that could easily be fixed by having the AI either not give to there vassels or not give to a human vassel

 

[Minor Annoyance]

Exactly what people do when they talk about the Praetoran being "overpowered," yet conveniently forgetting to mention that if you don't get iron or get it too late, you're out of luck...

Well none of those people are me so I don't see why you're saying that to me.

 

[SwordofStriker]

I tend to trade all my techs to my vassals and I always play with tech brokering off, so they can't trade them away.

Being that my vassals are usually beyond the point where they could come back for a victory, this has yet to hurt me. I don't see why the shoe can't be on the other foot. If I'm being militarily crushed under the boots of some random civ's army, I'd certainly love the option to capitulate and try to pull off a cultural victory perhaps.