1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Humankind - Spanish discussion thread

Discussion in 'Humankind by Amplitude' started by Eagle Pursuit, Aug 25, 2020.

  1. FinalDoomsday

    FinalDoomsday Prince

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2007
    Messages:
    380
    Location:
    Maldon, Essex
    Tercio's would have looked a bit awkward, look at the pike and shot unit in Civ 6 something about that looks off to me and it would have been confusing in Humankind Combat. Hopefully conqistadores have an interesting ability.
     
    j51 likes this.
  2. Boris Gudenuf

    Boris Gudenuf Deity

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2012
    Messages:
    3,417
    Location:
    north of Steilacoom, WA
    The use of pistols by cavalry that started in late 16th century (1550 CE: first use of word in the form of the French 'pistolet') resulted in such cavalry being almost worthless against any steady infantry for the next two hundred years. Monteccucoli the Austrian general pointed out, for instance, that the effective range of a pistol from horseback while charging, wheeling, galloping was about half the length of your own horse: he suggested not firing until your horse's head contacted the enemy line or other enemy's horse. That makes pistol 'ranged fire' have less range than a pike. And in the illustration showing caracole horse attacking a mixed pike and shot formation, what do you think the casualty ratio was between horsemen with extremely short ranged weapons and infantry with long muskets firing a 50 - 100% heavier ball? Not pretty. There's a reason Gustaphus' cavalry, the Duke of Marlborough's cavalry, and Friedrich the Great's cavalry all dominated their opposition: all three men refused to let their horsemen use mounted pistol fire while their opponents kept trying to.

    No, rather than perpetuate a tactical system designed to negate most of cavalry's advantages of shock attack, the Tercio would be the best Spanish 'Emblematic (combat) Unit' for the period. It was Original to Spain and dominated land warfare in Europe for a century.

    If you want a ranged mounted unit, they should try something that has never been in Civ: Dragoons. First organized by Count von Mansfeld in the 1620s, or about 60 years after the Caracolics, but because they carried muskets and dismounted to fire were much more effective ranged troops. Also, they were extensively used throughout the 17th and early 18th century as reconnaissance troops in Europe, and were notoriously mounted on the cheapest horses - a cavalry unit that for once doesn't cost an arm and a leg to form! (By no coincidence, most of Spain's 'cavalry' by the end of the 17th century were Dragoons - the country's finances were in such bad shape they couldn't afford anything else!)

    Ah well. The Humankind Spanish, depending on the map as someone already pointed out, will be used as Expansionist just because that's what Spanish DO in that time period, whether they do it with Conquistadores, Mounted Pistoleers, or prefabricated Missions they can throw up on foreign territory . . .[/user]
     
    Krajzen and Uberfrog like this.
  3. conorbebe

    conorbebe King

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2017
    Messages:
    739
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Are Gothic cathedrals really that emblematic of renaissance Spain? It just feels like the equivalent of making pagodas the EQ for China, but then saying that, the Mauryans do have the stupa, which I suppose presents a similar issue.
     
    need my speed and BuchiTaton like this.
  4. Zaarin

    Zaarin Chief Medical Officer, DS9

    Joined:
    May 14, 2016
    Messages:
    8,303
    Location:
    Terok Nor
    Wait, wait, wait. Spain gets the Gothic cathedral in the Early Modern period?! The pinnacle of Medieval culture, philosophy, and theology made manifest in architecture that achieved its highest form of expression in France...gets given to Spain in the Early Modern? :crazyeye:
     
  5. BuchiTaton

    BuchiTaton Warlord

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2019
    Messages:
    186
    Gender:
    Male
    You said it, "certain (Spanish) catholicism". Spanish were (are) nationalistic and fervent on their way. Muslim and Jew had a long history as their rivals and scapegoats, it was obvious that the Conversos would be the target of resentment on no time. The administration of the colonies is also a way to assert the interest of the Crown through the Peninsulares, put on charge people that dont have strong affiliation with Spain could turn on not so spanish results. And you know ironically the Gachupín administration was also to control the chaotic effect of early Encomiendas. Ally converse caciques on Repúblicas de Indios and Reducciones under holy orders resulted on a better way to administrate the majoritarily native population. It was not perfect on modern human right standards but was kind of unique at their time (way more extensive and emblematic that any Portuguese of French equivalent).

    But the question for the game is; How are the "Catedral Gótica" supposed to be the way to solidify the Spanish design? It is on origin Medieval and in no way exclusive to Spain. So Spain fought back the Reform? Also did French with the Cathars on the Albigensian Crusade and the HRE againts the Hussites. Bohemia could explode this religious war on both sides for a on game mechanic/bonus.

    Can I ask also, on a game with atleast 60 cultures, each one likely designed to exploit some specific mechanics and objetives each era. What is the design for Spain that would make them to leave the idea of the Early Modern transocenic conquerors and religious converters?

    Which country used the most the missionaries at the point to bring more people and land to the christianity that nobody since the Roman Empire?
    The second more speaked mother language on the world?
    Would you want Spain to turn on another trading early modern european culture to be with the Dutch, Portuguese and Venetians?
    Would be other kind of militaristic early modern european continental power like Poles, Ottomans and likely Austrians?
    Who is the one that could take the place of Spain if they are not a transocenic early modern empire?
    Dont they make sense for a bonus againts "minor" independent cultures/cities states?

    Tercios are relevant and all, but there are more cultures tha can use an EU with simiar role for Early Modern. Meanwhile conquistador well could be a explorer unit with unique mechanics far from home.

    Spanish conquest could be overused on games like this one, but their unique role is so obvious that is pointless to change it. Or would be better to make a list of all the traditional cultures and change them just to be different from say it Civilization series?
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2020
    j51, conorbebe, Siptah and 1 other person like this.
  6. Gwydden

    Gwydden Warlord

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2016
    Messages:
    103
    French cathedrals, you say? All this time I was convinced Notre Dame was Spanish for "give me niter," a sentiment I've often found relatable when playing CIV6.
     
  7. ehecatzin

    ehecatzin Emperor

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2007
    Messages:
    1,478
    Maybe, we'll get a pike and shot, and the Spanish one gets a Tercio reskin, missed oportunity if not.

    Well, that's where they would have to be clever and give it very clear disadvantages as well to balance them.

    I'll respectfully disagree with you there on the relevance part, you could apply that same logic to longbowman or the Winged Hussars, Tercios were emblematic to Spain that practilally perfected them, and very often crushed other pike and shot formations of the era. Conquistador may be recognizable and have appeal, but they weren't a military powerhouse all by themselves. If anything the greater merit of the conquistadors like Hernan Cortez was to be able to navigate the newly contacted peoples politics, see the weakness in their enemies, use the natives to lead rebelions.

    If the Conquistador is just a "better EM scout" I will be dissapointed. However, to your second point, I agree, considering that in humankind scouts can actually be useul for claming territory, IF the Conquistadors actually do something really cool, like being able to conscript independent cultures units, set forward military bases, or have a big bonus against cultures that trascended, then they could be really cool.

    Now I think about it, I really want them to have a bonus vs trascending cultures, going Spain might be the better way to break a trascending player streak, and also fits Spain thematically, both Aztecs and Umayyads should be concerned to see Spain come knocking.


    .
    .
    .
    and now I kinda hyped myself into liking the idea of Conquistador lol. fingers crossed for a cool bonus.
     
    Narcisse likes this.
  8. Siptah

    Siptah Eternal Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2016
    Messages:
    5,172
    Location:
    Lucerne
    @BuchiTaton obviously, EM Spain is perfect for filling the expansionist role like no other civ of that era, and for filling a religious role. I‘m just happy that the religious role has a twist compared to the usual in this case. Otherwise it could have been New Spain just as well as Spain, really... but let‘s wait for the actual mechanics of the cathedral and the Spanish legacy trait until we finally decide if we agree or disagree on the design quality and stringency. Religion itself is still very much an unrevealed feature. We know it exists, and that’s almost the limit of our knowledge. Maybe active conversion of others doesn‘t play a large part in the (vanilla) game at all? Maybe your newly founded cities will always start with your state religion? What use will faith have anyway? Increase influence and stability? An early version of ideological pressure? Who knows...

    (and no, I don't think that the French counter-reformation was conducted with the same rigor as in Spain, where the state was responsible instead of the church. Reformation never took off in Spain, in contrast to France for example, where it reached more than 10% of the population and quite a few reformers originate from there, most notably Calvin. And, of course, you don't see much impact of religious purity in French foreign politics, otherwise they would not have allied the Ottomans or the Swedes.)
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2020
    Zaarin and Narcisse like this.
  9. Narcisse

    Narcisse Warlord

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2020
    Messages:
    298
    Gender:
    Male
    @Boris Gudenuf thanks for the insight Boris, actually I read about Caracole, and their effectiveness is always debated and this is not a spainish-only tactic. But it was surely something less effective or emblematic than Tercio and Conquistadores.
    Just Mounted Pistoleers looks cool, it's my only argument :D There is already generic units of arquebusiers and halbardiers/pikemen in the game which can get a tercio/conquistador visual, not sure there is any generic mounted pistoleers, and again it's sad, because they look cool.

    But like ehecatzin said, I think than Conquistadores have the potential to get a really nice passive/ability. (to represent the overseas expansionism)
     
  10. Catoninetales_Amplitude

    Catoninetales_Amplitude Prince

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2019
    Messages:
    331
    Hmmm... nope.

    We did think about the Tercio, and we agree that it is really cool and Emblematic, nor do we think it would be inherently unbalanced, but then the ugly monster called "Production Constraints" reared its head once more: A single unit combining pikes and muskets would require an entirely new set of choreography (the way the animations of individual pawns are coordinated across time and space in different situations), which was not feasible. So I am afraid you will have to form your own Tercios out of individual units of pikemen and musketeers.
     
  11. Siptah

    Siptah Eternal Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2016
    Messages:
    5,172
    Location:
    Lucerne
    My guess for the Conquistador is (overly) simple: bonus strength in foreign territory.
     
    Elhoim likes this.
  12. Narcisse

    Narcisse Warlord

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2020
    Messages:
    298
    Gender:
    Male
    @Cat I tried :p

    Could be cool Siptah.
     
  13. Krajzen

    Krajzen Deity

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2013
    Messages:
    2,907
    Location:
    Poland
    I am not sure if this bonus will happen here, due to the tactical later being separate - it would mean unit is either generic or powerful depending on the location of tactical layer.

    By the way, have you noticed how boring most civ6 unit abilities are? Most of them are just "more base strength" or "more move in x terrain", or other very basic things like that, many of which don't make a difference. In Humankind so far it feels unique units have more impact and unique nature. Though maybe that's because of tactical battles in general.
     
    Elhoim likes this.
  14. Siptah

    Siptah Eternal Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2016
    Messages:
    5,172
    Location:
    Lucerne
    Have we seen how it works with the Babylonian EU? iirc they get a bonus for fighting in home territory, so the same rules would apply, just with opposing signs. Maybe it takes the single tile where the battle was actually started for such a rule, and not some position changes inside the tactical layer.
     
    Elhoim likes this.
  15. Catoninetales_Amplitude

    Catoninetales_Amplitude Prince

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2019
    Messages:
    331
    As far as I recall, the Babylonian EU gets their bonus "when standing on a friendly extension," so while that is certainly in friendly territory, it's a bit more specific than that.
     
    Jkchart, Kjimmet, tedhebert and 2 others like this.
  16. FinalDoomsday

    FinalDoomsday Prince

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2007
    Messages:
    380
    Location:
    Maldon, Essex
    They look good so far but it will be difficult to come up with lots of abilities for 60 unique units. I imagine some will be identical but in different eras, I can imagine the hoplite bonus when togeather will apply to something else in another era for example.

    I like how they are not all combat focused abilities like the Aztec Jaguar Warrior's being avaliable early in the era and not needing iron to produce, maybe conquisadore could have bonuses moving over water or gain wealth or influence from combat to simulate their desire for glory and fame?
     
    grug and Elhoim like this.
  17. Narcisse

    Narcisse Warlord

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2020
    Messages:
    298
    Gender:
    Male
    (in openDev Egyptian chariots and Khmer elephants had the same ability "Move and Fire", but some other like the Zhou Zhanche seems to have really specific ability "Mandate of Heaven". So it's just depend of the unit I think)
     
  18. mitsho

    mitsho Deity

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2003
    Messages:
    7,793
    Location:
    Europe, more or less
    It‘s okay if some abilities repeat. It makes the game easier and the uniqueness will come from the combination of different bonuses and the fact that different eras mean different environments. compare that to the for example ever more absurd leader affinities in Civ - the last one being the Ethiopians dislike other civs that build in hills - What?

    Better to repeat and stay „simple to understand“
     
    Narcisse, Elhoim and Siptah like this.
  19. Trav'ling Canuck

    Trav'ling Canuck Deity

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2018
    Messages:
    2,938
    Gender:
    Male
    The capacity for human beings to dislike other human beings for irrational reasons is nearly boundless. This may be one of the most accurate depictions of human behaviour implemented in Civ 6.


    I agree with this. HK's core design appears to offer enough "newness", it may be better for the learning curve if the number of rule-breaking uniques is limited. Simple +/- modifier bonuses aren't as interesting, but if the core engine is strong enough, they could be enough, especially for the vanilla release, to create some variety, without overloading the game experience. And if a "unique" trait was actually shared by multiple units, I don't mind each of them getting the same bonus, especially if they get it in different eras.
     
  20. Jcturmer

    Jcturmer Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2018
    Messages:
    38
    Gender:
    Male
    As a spanish, I love the design. The choice of building is strange but I'm ok with that. Almost all the large Spanish cities have Gothic cathedrals. In fact, the city where I was born has one built in the 16th century. I think that as we progress through the ages, we are going to have to get used generic buildings. I can imagine a supermarket for America or, you tell me, a great refinery for the Arabs.
    Which makes me think that there may not be common religious districts for all cultures.
     
    conorbebe, Narcisse and Krajzen like this.

Share This Page