Hunters, what's the point?

[Mesix]

I don't agree that Hunters and Rangers are useless, not my style however (prefer the Assassins). But I would like Animals to get a boost, here are my suggestions;

• Give Marksman promotion to wolves, and maybe an inate withdrawal.
• Give Lions some kinda boost on attack, maybe only on flat lands.
• Give Bears a defensive boost.
• Increase the strength of Gorillas by maybe 2.
• Elephants are ok, it's a nice reward that you can get the pretty awesome War Elephants from them.
• Tigers should have a Forest/Jungle attack bonus. Maybe +1 strength.

Something like that...

Those are all good ideas. It would also be cool if each animal could give some kind of bonus to a Ranger/Beastmaster. That would give animals more than one use. The player could choose between escoring the animal back to a city to add to the carnival or attaching it to a Ranger for a bonus. It would be made even more cool if the models for the animals would form new models for the ranger when they are attached. Each Ranger could only have one animal type attached (making for specialization) and the animal would appear as part of the unit (a lion or gorila along side the man).

• Wolf promotion could grant marksman and a withdrawal chance.
• Lion promotion could grant +1 sight range.
• Bear promotion could grant a +2 strength.
• Gorila promotion could add first strikes (or maybe make unit immune to first strikes instead).
• Elephant promotion could add colateral damage.
• Tiger promotion could give +1 movement and multiple attacks per turn (like blitz).

These are just some ideas. I'm sure that others could come up with better ideas or at least more balanced ideas.

 

[SwampCow]

While I concur with most that they are far from useless I think the OP's central complaint is valid. It has been a couple years since Kael and Co. nerfed the number of animals that spawned (lord was it a pain in the butt to clear wilderness of wolves after Nature's revolt) and since then it is always disappointing to me how few beasties there are through the first 100 turns. Thankfully elephants last the longest so you can still stockpile a few for war upgrade, but otherwise you rarely find any. Grand Menagerie is foolishly hard enough as is without reducing the number of critters.

Tech-ing up to get hunters is pretty rough on the research at the early stages of the game so it seems unfortunate that one of their two primary capabilities (second being the aforementioned scouting with birds) is rendered obsolete so quickly.

I always play with the Wildlands option on but it seems to matter little. I don't think animals need that much of a str boost. I certainly never use them for combat with the exception of spiders and any bears I capture already with a healthy dose of promotions. Besides, they make great fodder already once Nature's Revolt is cast.

Can I get some love for the idea of reintroducing some animal den spawns with the completion of Nature's revolt? Or even as a part of Genesis (dump animals in the unowned wilderness).

 

[hiphopin]

Thank you for everyones replies. I do however still feel that hunters are near useless after the start of the game. The only real reason I research them is to get to assassins, which, are actually good.

 

[mortus]

Considering that Acheron almost never gets killed by any AI in any games I play. Rangers upgraded to beastmasters can capture the beast and then you have a pretty strong dragon to kill everyone with.

 

[SwampCow]

Considering that Acheron almost never gets killed by any AI in any games I play. Rangers upgraded to beastmasters can capture the beast and then you have a pretty strong dragon to kill everyone with.

Except Acheron is now immobile. But he guards real good!

 

[Blackmantle]

I really like the recon-line.

Rangers are awesome (champion-level strength including low metal with far less tech requirement.) imo.

Hunters are a good Hybrid between Horsemen and Axemen.

+ when running FoL Recon is even usable for attacking cities (big thanks to satyrs)

Imo Recon is one of the strongest lines in the game. And this is even more the case for the recon-focused civs like the svartalfar and the sidar...

 

[Zechnophobe]

Hunters are actually pretty solid active defenders too (though not as good as assassins). They can get to where you need troops fairly quickly, have decent strength, and can defend as well as an axemen. While hunting is expensive by itself, Hunting + Exploration is much cheaper than Crafting + Mining + Bronze Working.

I don't often use hunting as my primary means of military, except for playing Svartalfar, but I do use it fairly regularly.

 

[Sarisin]

Put me down for one of those who likes using Hunters.

I agree that you need some luck to get Hunting and Animal Husbandry early on.

Fortunately, there is one game mechanism that can help you again if you are lucky - the event from a lair, etc. where you can get two Lizardmen very early on. Yes, you do have to survive the attack of the 3 dwarven axemen. But, even if only one survives, you can have a Hunter-type unit very early in the game. Then, go for Animal Husbandry and forget about Hunting for awhile.

I have been able to build the Grand Menagerie in about half of my .40 games. Yes, plenty of luck there, but IMO the key is sending your Scout/Hunter/Lizardman on a safari to get the Gorilla. Forget about Goody Huts, more lairs, killing Goblins, etc. Focus on the Gorilla. The rest are most common and you can always get the Tiger from the FOL priest. Getting the event where you can buy an animal is nice too!

I also usually slap my first Great Commander on my Lizardman that has been racking up XP in the early going. Then, in addition to increased strength he can exceed the 100 XP cap on killing barbs. He is usually the guy who gets to Level 15 and allows me to free Brigit.

One thing, though is that they are terrible taking cities. Even a highly promoted one has bad combat odds against a simple Archer.

Still, I really enjoy using the recon line in the game and wouldn't change anything.

 

[Valkrionn]

Depending on the civilization, hunters can be very useful... Playing as the Ljos, I killed Orthus with my first scout... Went on to become a Beastmaster with hundreds of xp, singlehandedly wiped out every other civ in the game. My current game as Kuriotates, I got lucky with dungeons, got the hunting tech, a supplies unit for the hunting lodge, and an adventurer to be upgraded. Having a hero hunter at turn 30 on epic speed is great.

 

[Sarisin]

Depending on the civilization, hunters can be very useful... Playing as the Ljos, I killed Orthus with my first scout... Went on to become a Beastmaster with hundreds of xp, singlehandedly wiped out every other civ in the game. My current game as Kuriotates, I got lucky with dungeons, got the hunting tech, a supplies unit for the hunting lodge, and an adventurer to be upgraded. Having a hero hunter at turn 30 on epic speed is great.

I agree with you. If you have a bit of good luck, you can really rule the world. Some games you get that one event, or one goody hut, or one result from a lair, etc. early that can mean so much in your game. Of course, the skill comes in with how you use your luck from then on.

 

[xxhe]

In fact, the role of hunter begins to decrease in the middle/late game, combining with the expensive teches, both of which make me unlike to continue this tech line.

My suggestion would go like this:

1.Make animals able to spawn in forest and ancient forest, even within border
2.Give some magic the ability to raise animals, just like the fellowship of leaves who can summon tigers. And the animals should be stronger as time pass.

 

[wuntoothrie]

one word:

marksman.

I don't know about anyone else but marksmen units are teh schyte, and promoting assasins is extremely hard without going warlord on everyone ... nurture a hunter or 4 early on and you could end up with a marksman with mobility II and subdue beasts ... extremely helpful if you play huge terra maps (like me) and it's time to explore the new world (always two, unexplored, barbarian continents on the axial hemisphere) as well as their just being a major threat .

 

[Valkrionn]

Honestly, if a lack of animals bothers people so much, go play FF. They let animals spawn all game, separately from the barbs.

 

[Dora190]

Whilst I do use hunters for collecting pets. I've never built a ranger. Hunters go to assassin and I generally stop there. I'm sure there's lots of good reasons to build them, its just that I never seem to have the time to spare to bother building them.

And yes I rarely build beastmasters, by late game I'm usually looking at other techs.

 

[DarkxL0rd]

Thank you for everyones replies. I do however still feel that hunters are near useless after the start of the game.

looks to me like you have it set in your mind that you're not going to like hunters. even after literally dozens of reasons and replies on why they are both useful and unique. did you even read what everyone is saying, or just being closed minded? looks to me like the latter.

 

[Breunor]

I often build the hunters pretty fast. I really like them for the early game, where their speed and strength actually let you scout the game for real. Since they are fast they can get back, and they defend very well.

I also like their ability to get woodsmen. Sometimes attacking city raiders coming in woods is a good idea.

Their utility likely will depend on the map type. The more forbidding the terrain, like an Erebus map, the more useful they are since scouting will be important later and animals more abundant. I built the Grand Menagerie the first time I played on an Erebus map. On a map where a lot of Civ's will spawn near each other they won't be as good.


Best wishes,

Breunor

 

[hiphopin]

looks to me like you have it set in your mind that you're not going to like hunters. even after literally dozens of reasons and replies on why they are both useful and unique. did you even read what everyone is saying, or just being closed minded? looks to me like the latter.

Yes I did read what everyone said, and while there are clearly some great uses for them early on, I just have not found anything that suits my play style. I will still always build 1-2 hunters as I usually do, I was just thinking I could have more uses than just a little bit of exploration that would suit me.

I am glad to hear however other people are able to use an enjoy them, maybe their just not for me.

 

[xaosseed]

Hawks alone makes them worth it. Send them up a peak and their visibility is amazing.

Amen.

Plus, I find that trying to take out spiders and bears/gorillas with just scouts or warriors means you're fighting for terrain advantage just to break even but hunters get you that much closer.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

Except Acheron is now immobile. But he guards real good!

he is immobile until captured. have fun

 

[Caradoc]

Move 4 is enough of a reason for Hunters for me. Once I research Horseback Riding, all of my Melee units start getting move +1 as their first promotion and my hunters start turning into crazy 4 move powerhouses.

Add Woodsman 2 and watch them sprint through the forest.