Hwacha issue

[Rael]

Hwacha have a +50% bonus against Melee units so I thought I don't need to use Axemen in my stack to protect from enemy Axemen. But when I moved towards enemy city with my stack of 4 Swords and 3 Hwacha I was attacked by an Axeman and the unit that was defending was my Swordsman (he died). The AI hasn't had a problem with selecting the right defender so far, but now it made me lose the battle

 

[crunch]

Perhaps swordsman's defense value was in fact higher because catapults don't receive defensive bonuses.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

That would have to be +100% defense bonus (Sword is -50 in the fight, and a Hwacha is +50)

Because they are siege weapons, there could be some coding that prevents them from being used for defense

 

[mikeymike]

If your units were on plains or grassland I could understand your confusion regarding the swordsman defending...however, with defensive bonuses it would make sense...

In all instances Axeman vs Hwacha = 5*1.5 vs 5*1.5 = 7.5 vs 7.5

Axeman vs Swordsman on hill = 5*1.5 vs 6*1.25 = 7.5 vs 7.5
Axeman vs Swordsman in forest = 5*1.5 vs 6*1.5 = 7.5 vs 9
Axemen vs Swordsman on forest hill = 5*1.5 vs 6*1.75 = 7.5 vs 10.5

As you can see, Swordman with any terrain bonuses should be the defender (though on a hill it would be split 50/50 on who defends...don't know how the ai decides defender in this case)

Remember, +50% vs melee does NOT mean -50% for defender...it means +50% for attacker

Someone please correct me if im wrong!

 

[Draconian]

Axeman vs Hwacha should be 5 vs 7.5

And all bonuses in combat (except strength promotion) are applied to the defender, so it would be:
Axeman vs Swordsman on hill = 5 vs 4.8
Axeman vs Swordsman in forest = 5 vs 6
Axemen vs Swordsman on forest hill = 5 vs 7.5

So the Hwacha should be chosen. But in Vanilla siege units were allways chose as last defender, even when they had better odds. So looks like this wasn't changed in Warlords.

 

[mikeymike]

Ah...sorry for dumb mistake when calculating axemen vs hwacha...you are correct that it is 5 vs 7.5...

However what im confused about now is your statement that all combat bonuses are applied to defender. I'll have to double check, but i thought i remember when hovering over a unit to determine odds (for example sending an axeman against the swordsman) that the +50% was applied to the axeman, not -50% applied to the swordsman....in this case swordsman should be chosen to defend if in forest or forest hill...

Rael...what terrain were your units defending in?

 

[mikeymike]

I did some more digging and Draconian you are indeed correct! I read thru the Combat Explained thread in the strategy and now understand combat a little better. I never new that the combat bonuses are taken away from the defender! Seems a little counter intuitive to me...i mean when the game lists +50% against melee units i took it to be a stat of that unit (axeman get +50%), not that the defending unit would get -50%.

It also appears that your statement about siege engines defending last even if they have better odds is also correct.

I've played this game a lot and i guess you never stop learning....thats what i love about civ! Thanks Draconian for setting the record straight and teaching me something new.