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Hydro Plant / Wind Plant

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by Deadstarre, Nov 26, 2017.

  1. Deadstarre

    Deadstarre Expert

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    I really love the idea behind both these buildings, which is why i'm a little sad I can't seem to get any good use of them. My issue is that basically by the time they are available to be built, the game is over or so close to it that I cant afford to be spending the hammers for them. I have hammers for nuclear plants, which at +%50 production add an enormous benefit for even the brief time in a game you have them, but for the wind/hydro.. by that point in the game my cities are working so many specialists that i barely touch the land at all anyway- so building them just to improve the handful of tiles im still working adds up to almost insignificant bonuses.

    I think i'd like to see them moved up a lot nearer to the discovery of aluminum - as right now you discover aluminum, but then can't do a single thing with it for a long long time. its not that theres any shortage of buildings to make already during that time, but if they were moved up there it would add some interesting choices to make

    thoughts? does anyone else love using the wind and hydro plant as they are right now? or am i the only one who hasn't won the game already by then and has time to lament how useless they feel =)
     
  2. ElliotS

    ElliotS Warmonger

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    I agree 100%. There aren't many buildings I build a lower % of the time than these.
     
  3. Enginseer

    Enginseer Salientia of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Do we need a Nuclear Accident addition to it? :mischief:
     
  4. Deadstarre

    Deadstarre Expert

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    I mean... you can... but I'm still gonna disable events (don't hurt me please)
     
  5. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    This happens because most cities only work on 4-5 tiles, being specialist the main yield source. For that buildings to be relevant, there needs to be some cases where working the land is still more benefitial than working specialist slots.
     
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  6. Owlbebach

    Owlbebach Emperor

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    This happens because science speeds up very hard in later stages of the game. Turn 200-220 is a timing for Archaeology, which is the beginning of Industrial and turn 275-285 is a timing for space ship. So problem is that currently we have 200 turns for the first 4 eras and 70-75 turns for 3 later eras, which is like 3 turns per technology
     
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  7. Deadstarre

    Deadstarre Expert

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    I think it is depressing to have a 30pop city, open the city manager and see virtually nothing but empty un-worked land tiles in front of you. I assume it is meant to emulate civ progress, like farmers are being replaced by stock brokers as the world ages or something, but it still feels awful to see.
     
  8. Deadstarre

    Deadstarre Expert

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    I agree. as I recall G has repeatedly lowered the cost of late game techs without lowering the things that grant science though (if anything the reverse has happened) so i assume there is a reason he wants the timing that way.
     
  9. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Tech costs are higher or as high as previous patches right now.
     
  10. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    Those are deity timings, I believe. Play on prince and the times goes up quite a bit.
     
  11. Deadstarre

    Deadstarre Expert

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    some difference I agree, but not too much no? im still going to play my game regardless of how fast or slow the AI is moving, and whatever i lose in tech discounts i'd make up for in their inability to compete with me for land or CS alliances. i dunno, i havnt played prince in about forever but i cant see it changing the timing much at all.
     
  12. ElliotS

    ElliotS Warmonger

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    Yes because dozens of effortless puppet cities will really hurt your timings. :p
     
  13. Owlbebach

    Owlbebach Emperor

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    Well if I play on Prince i believe my timings would be even better.... I bet i can win before turn 260 actually
     
  14. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    Higher difficulties can increase tech speeds because the AI tech faster, making the technologies cheaper after you meet them, and causing spies or the world congress to happen sooner. Obviously other aspects outweigh this, but it certainly does have an effect. I wonder if a few sources of science could be scaled back a bit. Like the OP pointed out, a building that gives 2 science per worked tile, in addition to all the other stuff isn't even worth building.

    The really late game technologies tend to have fewer effects than the earlier ones do, so its very appropriate that they go faster.
     
  15. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    And the time scale shrinks. The medieval period lasted approximately 1000 years. The atomic age less than 50. Makes sense that the first 4 eras, making up over 1800 years of history, should last longer than 200 years.

    G
     
  16. Deadstarre

    Deadstarre Expert

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    I bumped up manufactory yields already, but in my last game the engineer specialist absolutely puts a manufactory to shame once youre past a certain tech or have certain buildings. but why? why should so much of my land become completely obsolete because specialists just scaled up with tech way more than the land improvements did? it ties in with the "my city is thriving but all my tiles are all empty" thing. I guess it isnt quite the same for tradition, they probly fill the specialists and the land but should they be the only ones still working the land late game? i dont really like what the degree of discrepancy there becomes and I wanna take a closer look at exactly when it is all happening.

    so im starting to wonder what the effect would be in lowering some of the specialist tech yield updates, and/or also possibly removing some of the extra specialist slots. that extra 2nd slot on stock exchange, factory and train station all immediately come to mind as good candidates to disappear, and also the sci slot on military academy as well. I never got what he is doing there? if the XP buildings all give science thats fine and dandy, but give some flat science rather than adding another slot. mostly thats why i end up with order every game, i cant afford to not take instant free academys and research labs everywhere just because of those sci slots. and i also think scientists should scale up a little bit less than they do because they don't feel optional at the moment, past a certain point they just give so much science you can hardly get anywhere else you literally cant afford to not be working them. scientist slots fill up in every city before merchants or engineers because even the governor seems to see how much better they are.. but does working them need to be quite such a necessity as it is now? shouldnt there be some kind of choice involved there?

    getting some thoughts out and nearly derailing my own thread as usual. if the timeline for victory stays the same thats fine, but itd be nice if we could find a way of making hydro/wind plant relevant without just insanely buffing them and leaving them at the same tech
     
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  17. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    The deltas on GPP per GP born were increased quite a bit in the CBO - the new specialist slots exist to allow for players who heavily focus on a specific GP to achieve rates similar to vanilla.

    Specialists are supposed to outclass tiles in the late-game, yes. The unhappiness bonus is the trade-off. If the unhappiness bonus is not stick enough, we can increase it.

    G
     
  18. Deadstarre

    Deadstarre Expert

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    it could be that simple, the specialists are granting so much in yields it negates enough unhappiness to combat the fact they grant unhappiness at all, so any choice is gone and in consequence the most limiting factor of how many of those slots i fill is simply food - food becomes the only reason to be working a land tile at all so the city isnt starving.
     
  19. Moi Magnus

    Moi Magnus Emperor

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    The unhappiness is not a trade-off, except maybe for engineers, since specialist usually produce more happiness that unhappiness. The only trade-off currently is food.
    Increasing unhappiness from specialist will not solve the problem. The problem is that, appart from great person improvements, no tiles produce enougth science/culture to fight illiteracy and boredom, and no tiles produce as much gold as merchants to fight poverty.
     
  20. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Well, no, sorry, but you're wrong. There are many situations in which the unhappiness caused by a specialist offsets the yield bonus happiness - this is why manual specialist control can improve a city's happiness rating.

    G
     

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