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Hydro Plant / Wind Plant

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by Deadstarre, Nov 26, 2017.

  1. Deadstarre

    Deadstarre Expert

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    I think the later in the game you go, the more likely it is that they do "pay" for their own unhappiness. it definitely feels that way right now, ive really only been addressing late game stuff here when the specialists yields take off and the land stagnates. particularly manufactories... boy do they suck.
     
  2. Deadstarre

    Deadstarre Expert

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    i actually do think amping up specialist unhappiness could have a big impact in a whole lot of ways though
     
  3. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    In some scenarios, yes, but not all. Again, though, specialists are supposed to be superior to tiles. Inevitably your cities should strive to work as many specialists as possible...

    G
     
  4. Deadstarre

    Deadstarre Expert

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    a big part of a specialists appeal should also be the GPP they generate as well, but as it stands i wind up producing a bunch GP as a simple byproduct of doing what i was gonna do anyway, which is having my citizens where they generate me the most yields. feels a little weird honestly when i was playing a game largely ignoring GP generation

    anyway i just loaded up an autosave from my last game to take a quick look for reference. turn 278, I took progress fealty industry and order, looking at a 22pop city.

    hill academy produces (nevermind)

    with manual control and no specialists at all slotted my city has no illiteracy, im actually 4.4 over the need. So i manually added in all 6 scientists slots, the citizens all coming off bare tundra tiles, and it changed my unhappiness in grand total by less than 2 happiness... i went from 47.25 urbanization to 48.75. so if i had -any- illiteracy the benefits would be even better, so yeah this cant be currently working as intended right? I mean there is literally *no* tradeoff at all here, you just slot those scientists no questions asked and no decisions to be made, done.

    mine gives (nevermind)

    trading post (nevermind).

    i have no policies that reduce specialist unhappiness right? shouldnt specialist unhappiness scale by era too?
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2017
    Infixo likes this.
  5. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    Specialists pay already for themselves when great people is born. There's no need to make them stronger also in raw yields (food discounted).
     
    Deadstarre likes this.
  6. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    There is a weird thing you should definently double check. For some reason, the game will already count multipliers when looking at specialist yields, but not when you hover over the tile (this is why specialists often give decimal yields)

    So just be careful when comparing, I know that in my current game specialists look stronger than an academy does, but they actually only produce about half the science. Also academies buff all future scientists, which is a big deal
     
  7. Deadstarre

    Deadstarre Expert

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    lets see.

    working the academy brings my empire-wide science up by 81 points, working a scientist slot instead brings my science up by 37 points.

    ffs. all i know is what the game tells me lmao, how am i supposed to have an informed discussion or informed decisions in-game when it lies (or tells half truths) to my face? if terrain yields dont show what the output is when you factor in modifiers, why would specialists? need some consistency

    but yeah, still think the unhappiness should scale with era. and looking at the actual production output of a city in working a mine vs working engineer, the engineer is still double the hammer output of the mine, on top of whatever gold and science it is actually giving. i have no idea what that amount would be since apparently numbers lie
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2017
  8. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Yeah, that's how EUI does it (for whatever reason) - same with building yields on the right-hand side. The true numbers are on the tooltips on the left side for each yield.

    Considering that many players already struggle with late-game unhappiness, not sure scaling it is a good idea. That would create odd swings at era changes too.

    TBH I feel like these are all solutions looking for a problem. Cities (in real life) are the lifeblood of society in the modern era. Same in civ.

    G
     
  9. matlajs

    matlajs King

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    i agree with manufactory is trash tile compared to others GPIs. I know, that this disscusion is about other things mainly, but i can at least contribute as another vote for buffing them. no matter if factory gives them +2 g here or if particular terrain gives them buff there. i know they still can be usefull, when landed on luxury or bonus, but it doesn' actually makes improvement better itself.
     
  10. Deadstarre

    Deadstarre Expert

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    if i remember correctly the EUI yields didnt always do that. it can't be reverted to a simple format where hovering over the actual specialist slot shows the base number for what that actual specialist gives?

    also, the forums are already filled with people complaining of odd unhappiness swings, so in fairness that would be nothing new to the mod. But the hydro plant still sucks, thoughts on that?
     
  11. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    No - EUI is a labyrinth I refuse to go back into.

    G
     
    phantomaxl1207 likes this.
  12. Deadstarre

    Deadstarre Expert

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    for some reason people wrote code into the specialist tooltip display to take into account modifiers... and again, thats pretty stupid given players only use those numbers to compare to (unmodified) terrain when deciding what to work. and im guessing most people aren't even aware how wrong the numbers currently are when theyre making those decisions but... isn't this it? from the cityview lua which was apparently last modified on 12/1/15. doesnt look that bad to me?

    Spoiler :

    -- Tooltips
    -------------------------------

    local function GetSpecialistYields( city, specialist )
    local yieldTips = table()
    if city and specialist then
    local specialistID = specialist.ID
    local cityOwner = Players[ city:GetOwner() ]
    -- Culture
    local cultureFromSpecialist, specialistYield = city:GetCultureFromSpecialist( specialistID )
    local specialistCultureModifier, specialistYieldModifier = city:GetCultureRateModifier() + ( cityOwner and ( cityOwner:GetCultureCityModifier() + ( city:GetNumWorldWonders() > 0 and cityOwner:GetCultureWonderMultiplier() or 0 ) or 0 ) )
    -- Yield
    for yieldID = 0, YieldTypes.NUM_YIELD_TYPES-1 do
    specialistYield = city:GetSpecialistYield( specialistID, yieldID )
    specialistYieldModifier = city:GetBaseYieldRateModifier( yieldID )
    if yieldID == YieldTypes.YIELD_CULTURE then
    specialistYield = specialistYield + cultureFromSpecialist
    specialistYieldModifier = specialistYieldModifier + specialistCultureModifier
    cultureFromSpecialist = 0
    end
    yieldTips:insertIf( specialistYield ~= 0 and specialistYield * specialistYieldModifier / 100 .. tostring(YieldIcons[yieldID]) )
    end
    yieldTips:insertIf( cultureFromSpecialist ~= 0 and cultureFromSpecialist .. "[ICON_CULTURE]" )
    yieldTips:insertIf( civ5_mode and (specialist.GreatPeopleRateChange or 0) ~= 0 and specialist.GreatPeopleRateChange .. GreatPeopleIcon( specialist.Type ) )
    end
    return yieldTips:concat(" ")
    end

     
  13. Deadstarre

    Deadstarre Expert

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    can't just zero out the equations thats calculating the modifier?
     
  14. Enginseer

    Enginseer Salientia of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Why don't you do it and give us the results? :)
     
  15. Deadstarre

    Deadstarre Expert

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    figured it didn't hurt to ask before i started tinkering and loading. doesnt look that complicated to me but if you know something i dont feel free to save me 20 minutes of loading and just say "that wont work"

    again, i do specifically remember it wasnt always this way. for reasons unknown, someone did change it at some point (12/1/15 apparently) so any files in versions that existed before then would have the proper code sitting around if theyre stored anywhere.

    but let me ask you Enginseer, as a player you don't see any problem with the fact you have literally nowhere to look in the EUI at the moment to see what a specialist base yield gives at any given time? or if youre seeing that number somewhere, please tell me cause i couldn't find it.
     
  16. Enginseer

    Enginseer Salientia of the Community Patch Supporter

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    That's my answer. I've tried to use EUI and non-EUI compatibilities to no avail. Even JFD has begin to disown compatibility for it.

    bc1 has also disowned VP compatibility as well as seen within previous versions of VP where he was tired of troubleshooting issues that only relate to VP.

    We've also done so similarly as a VP modmod whereas we don't use the DiploView(The EUI diplo buttons) and we even began to replace CityView.lua with Meister Maggi's EUI CityView
     
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  17. Deadstarre

    Deadstarre Expert

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    y'all do sound like defeated men tho. well anyway, i was looking in the wrong file earlier but i did find the right one now thanks to your reply and the code is definitely right here, i played with it and saw the change in game just not exactly the change i was aiming for (although it literally now gives a way to figure out the yield pretty quickly where none existed before) but i'll keep playing with it anyway. im not satisfied just yet, i want it to show me the right number with zero math on my end. but yeah those modifier equations are the only part needs touching

    Spoiler :

    local function GetSpecialistYields( city, specialist )
    local yieldTips = table()
    if city and specialist then
    local specialistID = specialist.ID
    local cityOwner = Players[ city:GetOwner() ]
    -- Culture
    local specialistYield = 0
    local cultureFromSpecialist = city:GetCultureFromSpecialist( specialistID )
    local specialistYieldModifier = 0
    local specialistCultureModifier = city:GetCultureRateModifier() + ( cityOwner and ( cityOwner:GetCultureCityModifier() + ( city:GetNumWorldWonders() > 0 and cityOwner:GetCultureWonderMultiplier() or 0 ) or 0 ) )
    -- Yield
    for yieldID = 0, YieldTypes.NUM_YIELD_TYPES-1 do
    specialistYield = city:GetSpecialistYield( specialistID, yieldID )
    -- COMMUNITY PATCH BEGINS
    local extraYield = city:GetSpecialistYieldChange( specialistID, yieldID)
    specialistYield = (specialistYield + extraYield)
    -- COMMUNITY PATCH ENDS
    specialistYieldModifier = city:GetBaseYieldRateModifier( yieldID )
    if yieldID == YieldTypes.YIELD_CULTURE then
    specialistYield = specialistYield + cultureFromSpecialist
    specialistYieldModifier = specialistYieldModifier + specialistCultureModifier
    cultureFromSpecialist = 0
    end
    yieldTips:insertIf( specialistYield ~= 0 and specialistYield * specialistYieldModifier / 100 .. tostring(YieldIcons[yieldID]) )
    end
    yieldTips:insertIf( cultureFromSpecialist ~= 0 and cultureFromSpecialist .. "[ICON_CULTURE]" )
    yieldTips:insertIf( civ5_mode and (specialist.GreatPeopleRateChange or 0) ~= 0 and specialist.GreatPeopleRateChange .. GreatPeopleIcon( specialist.Type ) )
    end
    return yieldTips:concat(" ")
    end

     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2017
  18. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    Time ago, a modder did try to make a new UI, aiming to replace EUI, sharing many features, but more coder friendly. He managed to make a new city view, but that was all. This is certainly a thing needing improvement. I mean, EUI is fine, but there are some bugs that G cannot debug, info that won't show properly and if you try the mod Enginseer talks about, you can see that there are more efficient ways of showing the info.
     
  19. Deadstarre

    Deadstarre Expert

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    im sure thats all true, to be honest with you i have no clue whatsoever about modding or the technical difficulties that come with it- however there was no reason for anybody to over-complicate this particular issue, i'm already done here and the specialist yields are now displaying correctly without modifiers. it took me trying out 6 different equations (and some really stupid ones at first because i failed sequential 2 in highschool) but ill bet you G or Enginseer would have had it resolved in 2 minutes if theyd looked. but, they both sound like they already have PTSD from the EUI so i get it.
     
  20. RAuer2

    RAuer2 Chieftain

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    The answer was a polite no. The answer was not accepted and even now the response is essentially "that would have been simple like I thought it was if only you had looked at it." If EUI is, based on their experience, a can of worms then not dealing with it at all is reasonable. G does, after all, have another mod he is trying to complete.
     

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