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I can’t believe Spain is not in!

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by Giordano Léonce, Mar 17, 2010.

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  1. Malkaviel

    Malkaviel Prince

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    It says in the story "jawbone of a horse", which could have been a mesohippus jawbone or some descendant... contrary to popular belief there were horses in the americas until about 10,000 years ago. Clovis would have eaten them.
     
  2. EMT

    EMT Hated by the Spaniards(?)

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  3. Willem

    Willem Deity

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    There's alot of speculation that the people who where living in Siberia at the time were closely related to modern day Mongolians.

    I would love to see a Polynesion civ in the game. IMO they have been woefully neglected in the franchise.
     
  4. Willem

    Willem Deity

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    Why would there need to be a destination? Did the Polynesians somehow intuitively know that the islands they did inhabit in fact exist, or did they just stumble upon them in their travels? Or maybe some storm blew them off course and they somehow found their way to the Americas. Your argument here is pretty flimsy, to say the least.
     
  5. Malkaviel

    Malkaviel Prince

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    Sure, I guess you could sail in one direction long enough and get... somewhere, if you live. Your portrayal of "exploration" is more like suicidal meandering.

    Exploring land is easier, provided you're not exploring a desert or an arctic barren waste, than ocean exploration, because generally there's some sustenance to be foraged and places to stop and rest and seek shelter.

    On the presumption polynesian explorers weren't suicidal, they'd stow water for a meager crew on a simple (by today's standards) catamaran for a month (?) and take along some food to supplement the fish they'd catch along the way. If they found nothing in a couple weeks, I'd hope they would turn back.

    Here's the thing about Colombus's expedition. Aside from the fact they had craft more advanced than polynesians', and they took only barely enough sustenance, and barely made the crossing, he had an astrolabe and he knew he was going somewhere. There's no coincidence he landed somewhere 23-24 degrees south latitude in the western hemisphere, because he knew from people traveling the other direction around the world that was about where he needed to be to hit the indies. He just didn't know the world was twice as big as he'd envisioned. So there was some fore-knowledge.

    Also, in case you missed this part, if polynesians hit the americas from the west, where are artifacts or any other proof of said endeavor? OK so we have a potato specimen, a chicken, and a couple similar words. A link I supplied shows the chicken to specifically not be a genetic match. Verbal similarity can easily be coincidence, especially since they're only a couple words, not some standard of basis for either's linguistic structure. The potato? Who knows, like I said, nature can do some pretty weird things on it's own.

    Look, compare the statement, "Polynesians crossed the pacific before europeans crossed the atlantic" to the statement, "Purple sparkly unicorns exist". You say, "I don't believe purple sparkly unicorns exist". I then supply you with legends about purple sparkly unicorns from the oral tradition of, say, Ireland. Then I show you a drawn picture of a purple sparkly unicorn on a website. You say, "These are only stories and drawn pictures. Where is your proof? Where are purple sparkly unicorn droppings?" I say, "Purple sparkly unicorn droppings are made of ice cream which is eaten by school children, further there are no hoof prints because purple sparkly unicorns float." You say, "Where is a purple sparkly unicorn carcass?". I say, "According to this New Age Religion website, purple sparkly unicorns break into pieces and instantly spawn leprechauns when they die, in the air, because they float. Now based on the merits of my say-so and these obviously readable and visible websites and drawn pictures, you cannot give a reason why purple sparkly unicorns do not exist. Also, you're a mean, abusive person to ever say there were no purple sparkly unicorns."

    Are you going to believe me?
     
  6. Birdjaguar

    Birdjaguar Hanafubuki Retired Moderator Supporter

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    Moderator Action: @Dale & Malkaviel, if the personal attacks continue, I will lock the thread.
     
  7. Willem

    Willem Deity

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    And how do you think that the Polynesians arrived on all those islands in the first place? And it wouldn't be just suicidal meandering. The Polynesians no doubt followed marine life migrations the same way that the North American natives followed the Bison.

    So what, the ocean is devoid of life? There's plenty of fish to be caught, with seaweed and other edibles floating around. And a well built ship, which they possessed, provides more than enough shelter for anyone. They would in fact have much less need for rest than people who are travelling on foot and on the move.

    You're making alot of presumptions of a people you know absolutely nothing about. You have no way of knowing how they would outfit themsleves, this is nothing but pure conjecture.

    Completely irrelevant. First of all the Polynesians had alot more experience at living from sea than the Europeans did and would have fared much better on an extended trip. They also would have had a good knowledge of navigating by the stars and wouldn't need an astrolabe to guide them. And why is this issue of needing a destination such an obsession with you? Nomads don't have destinations, that's their nature. Finally, as has been pointed out, South America is not that much further from Easter Island than Easter Island is from the next habited island. It wouldn't have been a long journey for them at all.

    Another completely irrelevant argument. The fact remains that it was concievably possible for the Polynesians to reach South America. There's absolutely no logical basis for the existance of unicorns. Now while there's no hard evidence that the Polynesians did in fact reach there, there's a number of pieces that are circimstantial enough to provide a benefit of doubt. It doesn't take any stretch of the imagination to think that they found the continent. In fact, considering their other accomplishments, it would be inconcievable that they hadn't at least visited there at one time.
     
  8. Malkaviel

    Malkaviel Prince

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    I am just shaking my head... :pat:
     
  9. Willem

    Willem Deity

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    You know, I've about enough of your attitude. I think I'll just put you on my ignore list and be done with you. Obviously you know all, so there's no point in us mere mortals debating anything with you.
     
  10. Thormodr

    Thormodr Servant of Civ Supporter

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    Polynesians sometimes discovered new islands when they fled their native lands because of war or exile. Sometimes they didn't have much of a choice. Suicidal perhaps but not meandering. They were expert sailors and navigators. They traveled to locations that sometimes took weeks to get there over distances of thousands of miles.

    Hawaii and Easter Island are a considerable distance from other islands. If they could make it there then it is certainly not impossible that they made it to South America.

    Certainly there is no direct proof of them doing it. However, considering the spread of sweet potatoes from its native area of South America to the Pacific islands before the arrival of the Spanish, a voyage to South America seems the best explanation.

    Whatever the case, if the Polynesians didn't, it doesn't bother me. I'd just like to see them as a Civ in ciV.
     
  11. Giordano Léonce

    Giordano Léonce Chieftain

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    I don't strongly object to moving the beginning of the Age of Discovery to an earlier date, as long it falls within the 15th century. The choice of an exact date is a somewhat arbitrary, and that periodization issue doesn't affect the argument for Spain's inclusion in Civ5. However, a couple of qualifications are in order:

    1) You propose the year 1419. I guess that you are referring to the discovery of Madeira by Portuguese explorers at the service of Henry the Navigator. That is fine to me. However, I still prefer to say that the Age of Discovery started in 1492, and that the earlier Portuguese explorers were precursors. My preference is motivated by the following consideration. The discovery of New World is the truly epoch-changing event, and it's much more memorable, say, than the exploration of the African coastline. It thus seems fitting that the year 1492 should be chosen to mark symbolically dawn of the Middle Ages, the end of la Reconquista, and the beginning of a new era of discovery.

    2) The Portuguese certainly played a prominent role during the discovery and colonization ages. Which is why Portugal deserves to be in Civ5. However, the greater extent of Spanish colonization, and the fact that Spain went on to become the leading European power for almost two centuries, give Spain the edge over is Iberian neighbour. For that reason, Portugal should be at least in expansion pack and Spain should definitely be in vanilla.
     
  12. Dale

    Dale Deity

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    1419 is the logical start of Age of Discovery. Why? Both Portugal and Spain were looking for paths to the sub-continent for trade reasons. Prince Henry believed it was possible to get there by going around Africa. Columbus believed it was possible to get there by going west. Both the Portuguese voyages from 1491 onwards, and Columbus's voyages from 1492 had the same goal: find India. IE: Discover the path to India. The Age of Discovery.

    Though I'm sure someone in this thread will just denounce it as lies and insult me, so take my opinion as you will. ;)
     
  13. Giordano Léonce

    Giordano Léonce Chieftain

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    There is no such thing as the exact "logical start date" of any historical age, let alone the Age of Discovery. In all periodization issues, vagueness looms large. Some prefer the years 1418-1420 to emphasise the early expeditions under Henry the Navigator. I prefer the year 1492 because it emphasises the voyages towards the New World (and also because it coincides with the end of la Reconquista). I am inclined to regard earlier Portuguese explorers as precursors. But it's purely a matter of emphasis shift, there are no sharp borderlines between historical eras.

    Anyway, as I have already said, I don't strongly object to broader periodizations with earlier start dates, as long as the start date falls within the 15th century. The argument for Spain's inclusion in Civ5 is not affected by that. The success of earlier Portuguese expeditions does not diminish Spain's achievements throughout el Siglo de Oro.
     
  14. Dale

    Dale Deity

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    Biased much? :lol: And what's defeating Granada got to do with the voyages of discovery?
     
  15. Giordano Léonce

    Giordano Léonce Chieftain

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    There is a strong causal link between the fall of the Granada and the discovery of the New World. The fall of Granada ended a period of nearly eight hundred years known as La Reconquista. This freed Spain from domestic conflict, which made it possible for a unified Spain to look elsewhere for expansion and embark on the exploration and colonization of the New World. The fact that Granda fell the same year as Colombus' voyages is not a mere coincidence.

    I see no peculiarly Spanish "bias" (although there might a be a wider euro-centric one) in picking 1492 as the most memorable and symbolic date to mark the end of the Middle Ages and the beginning of a new Age of Discovery. Many school books precisely do that and they are not always written by prejudiced Spanish historians.

    It seem to me that you are forcing on me a disagreement that doesn't exist. I have already agreed with you that the Portuguese expeditions of the early 15th century paved the way for further exploration. But, personally, I would pick 1492 as the most memorable and significant landmark year. Like I have already said, I regard this perdiodization matter as largely conventional: both 1492 and 1418-1420 are valid choices, neither of which affects the validity of the argument for Spain's inclusion in Civ5.
     
  16. Iván de España

    Iván de España Chieftain

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    The discussion about the discovery of America is being boring.
    Spain was important because of more things. Please, read the post 312. :)
     
  17. Fluke Bit

    Fluke Bit Chieftain

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    Sorry, fail. Defeat of Granada --> no more war expenses --> money to fund Colombus ;)
     
  18. Iván de España

    Iván de España Chieftain

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    Please, let's chat about other things of Spain. Read the text above.
     
  19. Dale

    Dale Deity

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    Except that it's already been established that Isabella privately funded Columbus. Not the Spanish treasury. No fail!

    Granada has nothing to do with discovering Americas or the Age of Discovery. It is the end of the Reconquista, not the beginning of anything.

    Anyways, as mentioned above none of this has any bearing on whether Spain gets into Civ5 or not. Spain is not in Civ5 because there are many more worthy Civs included.
     
  20. Dale

    Dale Deity

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    There's really no more need. Spain is NOT in Civ5. There is no further need for this discussion.
     
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