[R&F] I can't beat Human Mongolia

[Arent11]

From my experience with online play I wouldn't focus too much on Legion, whilst powerful, they're still infantry. Meaning they'll get out-positioned by cavalry, and outranged by archers. Keshig are both making a deadly combination. You would have a small window where Legion shine, though stirrups aren't a hard tech to get, the biggest delay (as you pointed out) would be hard building them. Though you would also have to watch out for Mongolian horsemen, which have 38 strength off the bat thanks to their leader ability, potentially 5 movement thanks to Ordu, and potentially even more combat strength thanks to their Civ ability.

Personally, I think the best UU (and the one's to build a strategy around) are the one's down the Archer, Light Cav, and Heavy Cav lines. Everything else is either useless, or situationally okay.

Which makes Mongolia actually pretty good, because they can "deny" you cavalry because of the danger of capturing them. Which also works well with Keshigs, because cavalry would be the natural counter.

I think it's mainly geography: If they spawn right next to Rome, Aztecs etc. they might be toast. If they are on a completely different continent, they might be outpaced technologically. But if they are at ~medium distance with an enemy in between, they might have enough time to actually build their Keshigs & use them against you.

I play Mongolia a lot, but exclusively SP. Genghis is really strong. I find it funny that somebody recommended Tomyris since he basically counters her.

I really hate this "rock-paper-scissors" civs. It throws off the game balance even more than it is already.

 

[kb27787]

Have you tried Aztecs? Basically produce nothing but eagle warriors and rush the nearest target. Get builder, trigger agoge. Take first city, (or CS) produce nothing but eagles... kill stuff, get builders, and chop out more eagles... by the time your opponent gets to Keshig (and for the most part, he should only get +3 from starting the trade route... you shouldn't be giving him any delegations/embassies), you should've conquered a good portion of the AI yourself and have ~+10 from luxuries. Aztec knight corps (close to ~70+ or 80 strength even... you can throw in oligarch legacy as well... and he has no counterpart to that because his units are ranged) should be fine against them.

 

[Victoria]

I played the Mongls and they were behind a science CS which was blocking most of the route to his territory through hill jungle so I made friends and pushed science hard.

They then attacked Hattusa and I declared a protectorate as I had knights. All Genghis had at that stage was horsemen... but oh god they were nasty, I could cluster one and take it out but the attrition was so bad it started getting ugly at one stage... I managed to push him back for 2 turns then he turned up with knights and generals and it was game over.

They do need a nerf.

 

[kb27787]

I played the Mongls and they were behind a science CS which was blocking most of the route to his territory through hill jungle so I made friends and pushed science hard.

They then attacked Hattusa and I declared a protectorate as I had knights. All Genghis had at that stage was horsemen... but oh god they were nasty, I could cluster one and take it out but the attrition was so bad it started getting ugly at one stage... I managed to push him back for 2 turns then he turned up with knights and generals and it was game over.

They do need a nerf.

One simple question... If you were the suze, wouldnt it have been easier to just surround the cs with your units on all 6 tiles (you can even levy to get units to help do so) without declaring war?
But seriously, deity mongol is probably deadly against cavalry class units. Still I do not think he needs a nerf... Ive never really had that much trouble against him and he's easy enough to befriend... Youd be facing the same scenario against Mapuche (+10 when you are golden) or any AI with crusade spread to your cities. Just cycle your damaged units into cities so that nothing dies and make peace in 10 turns...
Or just let him have the CS... It will loyalty flip anyway in most cases (when he gets dark age mostly)

 

[Victoria]

One simple question... If you were the suze, wouldnt it have been easier to just surround the cs with your units on all 6 tiles (you can even levy to get units to help do so) without declaring war?
But seriously, deity mongol is probably deadly against cavalry class units. Still I do not think he needs a nerf... Ive never really had that much trouble against him and he's easy enough to befriend... Youd be facing the same scenario against Mapuche (+10 when you are golden) or any AI with crusade spread to your cities. Just cycle your damaged units into cities so that nothing dies and make peace in 10 turns...
Or just let him have the CS... It will loyalty flip anyway in most cases (when he gets dark age mostly)

I forgot to block until it was too late, agreed Mapuche is also nasty and yes, does not really need a nerf, good to be thrashed every now and then. The fact he had generals and I did not with difficulty was +9 before considering mongol benefits so it was rather nasty and my fault for not being butch enough.

 

[isau]

The biggest thing with Genghis is to declare war the exact moment you see him and never let there be peace. That disables his ability to send a Trade Route for combat bonus. Try to get as many players on the map as possible to dogpile him with Joint Wars. If the game goes long enough, be sure to watch Great Merchants carefully during the Modern era and steal Mary Katherine Goddard before Genghis can grab her. Expending her will grant you +1 Diplo Visibility and largely short circuit his bonus. If he gets her though, expect even more pain.

Also, France naturally has +1 Diplo Visibility which limits Genghis' ability to wreck you with his trade routes.

 

[kb27787]

I forgot to block until it was too late, agreed Mapuche is also nasty and yes, does not really need a nerf, good to be thrashed every now and then. The fact he had generals and I did not with difficulty was +9 before considering mongol benefits so it was rather nasty and my fault for not being butch enough.

Yeah its not the UA itself most of the time... Its the UA + something else which is troublesome... E.g mapuche in your GA is manageable... Mapuche with crusade on the other hand... Ok I might actually lose here.
Otherwise the AI doesnt know how to handle a triangle of fortified knights behind a river next to your city... With river and support bonuses its almost impossible to take down those without crossing the river to flank...which is not what the AI would do... They will just bang their heads against your knight wall. But if AI is +15 against you then maybe this will still fail... Still this is a defense thing.. For offense its almost impossible to take on deity AI cities and units with those bonuses unless you have overwhelming numbers like 15-20 knights

Given fixed world eras its not hard to snatch one early GG in RnF (just get Boudicca or Sun Tzu if possible...Boudicca is basically free troops and Sun is half a great writer (for 60 gpp hes still cheap and worth his cost) AI can sometimes be competitive in early gwam points (greece and russia mostly) but I have yet to see an AI with more than a couple gg points.. Meaning you can just run the pink wildcard to get one.

 

[Victoria]

The thing is @kb27787 i’m always messing around doing things, I get bored of just playing one way and don’t mind as most games will just go to around T100 just due to the manual turn times after that. I had not bothered with GG and hitting horsemen in the 60’s was just as unpleasant as being “golden age goosed”.
Never got to the, ‘let’s lure you onto fortified ground with crossbow cover, waste your army then take your cities’ stage.

 

[Mr. Shadows]

My thought on the original post is that the player is more important than the start, which is more important than the special abilities of the Civ. Genghis certainly is very strong, but if his military push fails he has nothing else to fall back on. If you can't put him back on his heels before he builds horsemen you have to cut off the map by fortifying choke points. I suggested Rome because they're uniquely designed to do exactly that, and because their bonuses allow them to easily out expand their opponent if they can stop horsemen from advancing. If those horses don't win prizes Genghis will never catch up. I realize that I'm coming close to mouth-boxing (which is a waste of energy) but Genghis is not invincible, especially if he doesn't get off to a good start. For that matter I wonder how Cathy would play against him in an MP match. She generally gets fantastic starting dirt and her starting diplomatic visibility means that Genghis needs his instant trading post just to pull even.

 

[rollo1066]

Earth true start. Play Japan. Hope when he tries to invade that typhoons destroy his invasion forces. This worked in the real world in 1274 & 1281. Arabia building Mamluks might work also as they did win the Battle of Ain Jalut in 1260, first significant defeat for a Mongol army, and stopped the Mongol advance before it reached Egypt or Arabia.

 

[gatorsurgeon]

Mongolia is the most overpowered civ. They are the one civ I can win with pretty consistently on Diety. I can imagine that a good human player with a good starting position is going to be able to build an army that will not be stoppable if he uses it right.

 

[History_Guy]

Hey all!

I love Civ and I have been really lucky to get my best friend to like it too. Only problem is he found Mongolia, and hasn't lost a domination game yet against me.

I've tried teching up fast with Korea, I've tried Impi spamming, I've tried Nubian archer rushing (most effective), I've tried Alexandar, and at the suggestion of another member here Scythia (that was a FAIL).

Even when I pick an Island civ and build up a good navy he conquers the other computers with ease and has map control fairly quickly. The Keshigs are just insanely powerful and I can't find anything that counters them--even pike and shot is ineffective especially if you consider by the time you rush to it he has fully upgraded Keshigs from his rampaging conquest.

Even denying him trading I still can't beat him or counter Keshigs.

What do I do that isn't a crap shoot of luck--is there a solid strategy or counter to Mongolia for two evenly matched players?

Thanks!!!!

Ok, first off you need to think natural defense. To me the early units you need are spearmen. Greece for the hoplite, but that will only work, if and only if, you start as neighbors. However, the Zulu are by far the most natural opponent to the mongols/Sythia/Alexander. You get corps at mercenaries, Impis are cheap and just as strong as the pike, they are cheap to upgrade from spearman, you can out produce any opponent for a good portion of the medieval era, the inkando(half production) is completely sick and should be your first district in every city, great generals are a must for any war. Knights and Keshigs are expensive. Mongolia is a very nasty civ, but not unstoppable. If you have a great general/corps impi you should have an 84 attack strength (oligarchy, oligarchy legacy) against any cav unit, and clearly it is weaker against melee units, but if your using them right you should have them maxed out with promotions.

Hey all!

I love Civ and I have been really lucky to get my best friend to like it too. Only problem is he found Mongolia, and hasn't lost a domination game yet against me.

I've tried teching up fast with Korea, I've tried Impi spamming, I've tried Nubian archer rushing (most effective), I've tried Alexandar, and at the suggestion of another member here Scythia (that was a FAIL).

Even when I pick an Island civ and build up a good navy he conquers the other computers with ease and has map control fairly quickly. The Keshigs are just insanely powerful and I can't find anything that counters them--even pike and shot is ineffective especially if you consider by the time you rush to it he has fully upgraded Keshigs from his rampaging conquest.

Even denying him trading I still can't beat him or counter Keshigs.

What do I do that isn't a crap shoot of luck--is there a solid strategy or counter to Mongolia for two evenly matched players?

Thanks!!!!

Best civ on the game is Macedonia Hands down, but the Zulu are a great choice for countering the mongols.

 

[Lazy sweeper]

Arabian Mamluks or Egyptian War-cart are also very good choices, rush Egypt ranged carts and Mongolia will have a hard time get far enough to train Keshig