I can't figure the science game at all, and that's my main gripe with Civ6.

[Naokaukodem]

Playing vanilla, because GS just added some more frustration.

Continents, (had the same problem with Pangaea though) NO CITY STATES, NO BARBS, young world, abundant resources, "fair" start (to increase the odds to have a natural wonder near my capital), rainy, temperate, ROME, standard size map (8 players). [EDIT : Deity, because why not]

No matter what I fall behind in science when I should catch up. (Middle-Age) I build campuses, libraries, I even rush a little bit more the universities than I did before, I'm building cities where I can even in sub-optimal places because anyway there's no room for more than 4 decent cities usually, but everything takes eons to build in those, they have basically and obviously no visible effect while I should start to catch up.

And it's the same in multiplayer : oddly enough I'm often first in science during the early game, but soon I fall behind hard and quit. Like I'm at 50 science beakers and the leader has 170+, increasing dramatically every single turn.

I don't understand anything to science in this game. I realize that was my problem all along, hence I didn't like it too much and could rate it like 4/10. I'm trying. Every single time I say to myself : let's begin a game all over and be very aware of what I do : for example, I do think that expanding is important, yet I don't find enough space to expand, even friggin CS DISABLED. I usually stop expanding after my fourth city or so, when the AI has four cities as well, and then it's too late when I realize that the AI is either overexpanded or über tall. (like in my last game : I was south, scythia middle and brazil north, scythia expanded crazy and brazil has billions citizens but only 3 cities.

Anyway I don't think it's of use to give particular examples. It's always the same. I really don't understand the science game in Civ6.

 

[Pengwin7]

Been there.
Deity is brutal, absolutely brutal.
And the start is super unfair (feeling) with each AI CIV getting 3 settlers, 3 warriors, 3 builders and supercharged production.

I'm of the type (we're a 'type') that has to play at hardest level to feel good about our gaming skills.
But Deity is brutal.


I probably start 20-25 games before I find one I can win... (though these days I'm resolved to challenging myself with sub200-turn CULTURE wins... which basically requires a pretty god-start in the first 50 turns).


If you want a 'gift' map... I played one with Canada for a turn 198 Culture victory. [Canada = Gathering Storm though, I believe.]
Canada is nice because you get a ton of food/production from stuff in Tundra - and no worries of early war.
I once read that they are the ultimate starter-CIV for Deity... and I agree.


You get a great start with a ton of culture... and the more Techs/Civs you can get through... the more value your 'chops' have.
So there's some awesome woods nearby and you can 'chop' in whatever items you like... just wait until you've got through like, Political Philosophy.

I love wonder building - but I find, from the past, I'd always build them 'too early' and not get enough production out of my 'chops'.
In Deity, the sweet spot is building things like Oracle, Pyramids in the 45-60 (/500) range... if they are even still available (which often, they are not).
THIS game I started... it has been the ONLY time I've been able to secure a Campus + Great Library before turn 70 on Deity. And that was fun, helped a LOT.

So it was a really awesome game, an amazing feeling to beat Deity in under 200 turns in Culture.
And I'd guess this 'map/location' would also be a fun game to knock out Science victory.

Deity is hard.
But if you want to knock out a science victory - I can at least give you a map SEED# to try it.


Being Canada... it's GS... and I think it's also 7-Seas... which is my preferred map type.
(I share your pain on "Pangaea" and "Continents"... I had some issue with expanding fast-enough vs AI in Deity... just too difficult.)

 

[DeckerdJames]

If you removed the scientific city states, then you have Pingala, map tiles with science, and population. Pingala is a solid choice for early governor. If you go to State Workforce and immediately build a government plaza for the governor title, you can get to level 2 with Pingala quickly. Not always the right strategy but it is an option.

Deity gets a bonus so you need that much more science per turn to keep up.

 

[vorlon_mi]

Checking the wiki https://civilization.fandom.com/wiki/Difficulty_level_(Civ6), the Deity AI get a 40% boost to science. You have quite a challenge to get ahead of them on science-per-turn, which is what the OP complained about.

In terms of raw science received, the current wisdom is pillage and pillage some more. By attacking an AI city, pillaging its campuses, you can get a turn's worth of beakers just with your troops. You can keep up with the AI in "techs researched per age", this way, if not in actual beakers-per-turn.

 

[DeckerdJames]

You can also get a research agreement when you get to Civil Service and that is not too far into the game. You'll be settling cities for luxuries and resources that can be sold. Every city could use a harbor district or commercial hub for gold and the trade route.

 

[Naokaukodem]

Thx all for your replies.
But consider that I suck in science in multiplayer too, so that's not just the AI, it's me principally IMO. And I only play vanilla these days.

Pillaging I occasionally thought about it, I remember a game where I was X and sent a warrior to a far away city of Montezuma. It had a nice campus in the corner, I pillaged it with my warrior (happened to learn that even AIs can't have units everywhere), I mean everything in it, retreated, and then came back when repaired, it is to say soon enough ! Unfortunately, I think that this city finally got walls, so my warrior got killed or something, or it was just not enough to keep up with other AIs I don't remember. (was kind of a Benny Hill joke game anyway)

Now I re(times x)-started a game where I somehow managed to conquer China early (started the war by stealing a settler with a scout, lol I love that), I guess putting the settings on Epic game pace helped. It's not that different in the feeling but I'm only on turn 80 and have already more cities than a similar game on Standard game pace on turn 100+ so IMO it does have its meanings gameplay wise. I put back C-Ss and used fractal map : I have to say I have quite much room to expand, especially when France north east got shy and settling only lately a city south her capital. China also had weird behavior with its archers, not firing when they could, or maybe they didn't have vision but I believe that when we see them they can see us also so I don't know. Oh and I have that wonder that doubles every output around it, Mt. Kilimanjaro maybe ?
I stopped playing and saved because after China I didn't know what to do. I guess building campuses everywhere and continue wars...

 

[DeckerdJames]

Thx all for your replies.
But consider that I suck in science in multiplayer too, so that's not just the AI, it's me principally IMO. And I only play vanilla these days.

Pillaging I occasionally thought about it, I remember a game where I was X and sent a warrior to a far away city of Montezuma. It had a nice campus in the corner, I pillaged it with my warrior (happened to learn that even AIs can't have units everywhere), I mean everything in it, retreated, and then came back when repaired, it is to say soon enough ! Unfortunately, I think that this city finally got walls, so my warrior got killed or something, or it was just not enough to keep up with other AIs I don't remember. (was kind of a Benny Hill joke game anyway)

Now I re(times x)-started a game where I somehow managed to conquer China early (started the war by stealing a settler with a scout, lol I love that), I guess putting the settings on Epic game pace helped. It's not that different in the feeling but I'm only on turn 80 and have already more cities than a similar game on Standard game pace on turn 100+ so IMO it does have its meanings gameplay wise. I put back C-Ss and used fractal map : I have to say I have quite much room to expand, especially when France north east got shy and settling only lately a city south her capital. China also had weird behavior with its archers, not firing when they could, or maybe they didn't have vision but I believe that when we see them they can see us also so I don't know. Oh and I have that wonder that doubles every output around it, Mt. Kilimanjaro maybe ?
I stopped playing and saved because after China I didn't know what to do. I guess building campuses everywhere and continue wars...

Difficulty settings like Epic effectively make your units faster because they still move the same number of hexes each turn but there are more turns in the game, so each turn is a smaller fraction of the total time in a game. Marathon makes them even faster because there are 1500 turns rather than 500 turns. They are 3x faster. The equivalent on standard speed would be warriors that move 6 hexes per turn. ( i guess that means, since you like Epic which is 750 turns, 50% faster, you can mod every unit and make them 50% faster and you will do better on standard too, maybe)

If your game has improved drastically against the AI, then you use your extra time better than the AI. Watch out for those surprise attacks in the early game. It takes longer to get a solid defense relative to your enemy's newfound speed too. Tip: You can declare war on them first and sometimes it helps. Denouncing can also deter enemy settlers sometimes.

 

[Naokaukodem]

Difficulty settings like Epic effectively make your units faster because they still move the same number of hexes each turn but there are more turns in the game, so each turn is a smaller fraction of the total time in a game.

I know. You have more time to reach the enemy once a key military tech discovered. Downside is the very early era if AI uses its bonus against you, but even then I can manage.

Marathon makes them even faster because there are 1500 turns rather than 500 turns. They are 3x faster. The equivalent on standard speed would be warriors that move 6 hexes per turn. ( i guess that means, since you like Epic which is 750 turns, 50% faster, you can mod every unit and make them 50% faster and you will do better on standard too, maybe)

Marathon is like too much I think, especially from a feeling perspective, you hit the enter key in rows too much time. Plus that have a tendency to make me asleep and unaware of things. (experience from previous titles, never tried it in Civ6) Not talking about early AI rushes.

 

[pmarc]

Pillaging gets much stronger sometime between the 1st and 2nd expansion I think.

If you're playing Vanilla (so before Rise & Fall), it's all about the # of cities with campuses with good adjacency, which you amplify with policy cards (Natural Philosophy, Rationalism) and bonuses from science city-states. Compared to the change to policy cards and city-state bonuses in R&F, there are little advantages to growing your cities to large populations. A lot of them can do with 2 districts. Initially, besides the campus you may want some theater squares to unlock governments and policy cards fster.

The other thing about Vanilla is that removing trees for production (chopping) is really strong, because it scales as the game advances. District costs also scale, so in new cities chopping is the only way to produce districts and buildings in reasonable time. So look for expanding into spots with lots of forests.

If you're having trouble settling many cities (more than 4) on a standard map, what is the reason? Are you trying to space them apart too much? Consider that most cities don't need to work much more than 4 tiles, and you want to prioritize good adjacency bonuses for campuses when placing them.

 

[DeckerdJames]

The other thing about Vanilla is that removing trees for production (chopping) is really strong, because it scales as the game advances. District costs also scale, so in new cities chopping is the only way to produce districts and buildings in reasonable time. So look for expanding into spots with lots of forests.

I have also found that developing directly for a robust gold economy can help.

Settling for amenities, strategic resources, and gold on tiles can help get you game going strong by the medieval age or so. Reyna with contractor can help you buy districts in brand new cities in 5 turns after Reyna arrives. The library building always cost 360 gold on standard. The district does get more expensive.

Gold is the way to quickly develop a new city. Granary 260, monument 240, the district, the library 360. You get extra housing, border expansion from culture, and science. Extra population is more science and culture. So probably less than 1500 for each city until the district gets more expensive. About 15 turns if you have 100gpt.

Trying to build that in a new city will take a long time. I have had good success with getting Reyna first instead of Pingala but you need gpt for Reyna to shine in new cities, so if the land looks poor but the growth is good, Pingala can make more sense.