I don't know what to say.

[Mouthwash]

Dido:
10 strength, 2 moves.
1-2 first strike(s).
Can attack multiple times per turn.
+1 visibility.
100% withdrawal rate.
-50% collateral damage.
+50% strength.
+33% city attack.
+33% vs melee units.
+33% vs gunpowder units.

I'm barely out of the prehistoric era, and I have a literally immortal unit that is easily four times as powerful as a regular soldier, plus first strikes, wider visibility, immune to collateral, and can attack multiple times per turn.

Not to seem pushy, but why aren't heroes optional?

 

[Koshling]

Dido:
10 strength, 2 moves.
1-2 first strike(s).
Can attack multiple times per turn.
+1 visibility.
100% withdrawal rate.
-50% collateral damage.
+50% strength.
+33% city attack.
+33% vs melee units.
+33% vs gunpowder units.

I'm barely out of the prehistoric era, and I have a literally immortal unit that is easily four times as powerful as a regular soldier, plus first strikes, wider visibility, immune to collateral, and can attack multiple times per turn.

Not to seem pushy, but why aren't heroes optional?

100% withdrawal rate sounds like it must be a mistake

 

[Mouthwash]

100% withdrawal rate sounds like it must be a mistake

She came with an 80% withdrawal. She got two promotions, each giving her another ten percent (I actually could have gotten to 115%). Even without that, it's still immensely broken.

 

[Koshling]

She cam with an 80% withdrawal. She got two promotions, each giving her another ten percent (I actually could have gotten to 115%). Even without that, it's still immensely broken.

Ah, in that case she doesn't really have 100% I don't think. I **think** withdrawal odds actually compound multiplicatively in the actual withdraw calculations, so she probably has more like 85% actually. This may be a question Thunderbrd could answer - just how does withdrawal operate as it stacks up? (and can the aggregated display be done better in the hover text?)

 

[Mouthwash]

Ah, in that case she doesn't really have 100% I don't think. I **think** withdrawal odds actually compound multiplicatively in the actual withdraw calculations, so she probably has more like 85% actually. This may be a question Thunderbrd could answer - just how does withdrawal operate as it stacks up? (and can the aggregated display be done better in the hover text?)

Still, that's beside the point. I'm preparing an invasion of Xoingnu, which happens to be a major power right now. I could do it with only Dido and my level ten GG and win.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Do it and show with screenshots, please.

JosEPh

 

[TrippedOnACloud]

I'm not sure which version you're using, but in v26 with the latest patch, I can't give any of my units promotions that would push them above 90% withdrawal.

Also, I don't know if this remains the case, but in FfH units with 100% withdrawal could still be killed by first strikes (%&*$ Loki).

That said, I don't believe any of the other heroes come with such an absurdly high base withdrawal rate. When they're max-promoted, sure, but not right out of the gate.

Oh, and your invasion of Xiongnu with just Dido shouldn't work. At most, you can kill two units per turn, and if they're smart they'll just block her off with a constant supply of weak expendable troops

 

[Mouthwash]

Do it and show with screenshots, please.

JosEPh

Was just kidding (Make a scenario yourself in WB if you want). But you have to admit that they are unbalanced, right?

 

[Thunderbrd]

I was asked to comment on the withdrawal issue here.

The combat mod did remove the maximum withdrawal cap of 90% due to the intention to allow pursuit to counter it. For this time between dll and xml implementation, its going to be a bit overpowered for some troops with high withdrawal (though 90% is effectively near certain anyhow so the problem isn't far off from normal and should be considered a fairly imbalanced status to have such a high base withdrawal on any unit until pursuit levels become common and strong.)

However, yes, first strikes are a great counter. She has those too which makes her nearly invincible unless she's up against quite a few first strikes on a unit. First strike rounds cannot be withdrawn from so if she's got very few HP and takes a hit during a round she can't withdraw, she's toast.

But yeah, I think she's far too strong for her era anyhow. It should be an exceedingly rare and hard earned position to have 100% withdraw and up on any unit. ESPECIALLY if that unit also has any first strike capabilities.

 

[TowerWizard]

Forget withdrawal for a moment: why are heroes not optional? That was the original question.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Because they need tested and balanced for a bit. Better to do as done here in the beginning of the thread and point out areas where it offers great imbalance and allow us to tweak as a result than to have it turned off and ignored by the general playing public.

Perhaps later we can work them into an option. For now, however, they're the most compelling reason to reach for new cultures, which makes them worthwhile, imo, to have them come standard.

@SO: are they in a module that can be deactivated by those who find the Heroes not to their liking?

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Because they need tested and balanced for a bit. Better to do as done here in the beginning of the thread and point out areas where it offers great imbalance and allow us to tweak as a result than to have it turned off and ignored by the general playing public.

Perhaps later we can work them into an option. For now, however, they're the most compelling reason to reach for new cultures, which makes them worthwhile, imo, to have them come standard.

@SO: are they in a module that can be deactivated by those who find the Heroes not to their liking?

Currently they are the main benefit from Cultures, however we are looking at other benefits as well. Heroes and Heroic Achievements are modular and can be turned of I think. I'll just test that theory and report back.

Edit I turned them off and got no errors. They still appear in the pedia but they wont in game. Since the "Heroes" mod is XML and Python you need to do two things

1) Edit MLF_CIV4ModularLoadingControls.XML in "...Modules/StrategyOnly" and change

				<Module>
					<Directory>Heroes</Directory>
					<bLoad>1</bLoad>
				</Module>

to

				<Module>
					<Directory>Heroes</Directory>
					<bLoad>0</bLoad>
				</Module>

2) edit init.XML in Assets/Config

	<load mod="The_JMods"/>
	<load mod="Topkapi_Palace"/>
	<load mod="Partisan"/>
	<load mod="Heroes"/>
	<load mod="InitMilitaryPromos"/>
	<load mod="Modifieda4"/>

and change the line with Heroes in it

	<load mod="The_JMods"/>
	<load mod="Topkapi_Palace"/>
	<load mod="Partisan"/>
	<!--load mod="Heroes"/-->
	<load mod="InitMilitaryPromos"/>
	<load mod="Modifieda4"/>

 

[Mouthwash]

Currently they are the main benefit from Cultures, however we are looking at other benefits as well. Heroes and Heroic Achievements are modular and can be turned of I think. I'll just test that theory and report back.

Edit I turned them off and got no errors. They still appear in the pedia but they wont in game. Since the "Heroes" mod is XML and Python you need to do two things

1) Edit MLF_CIV4ModularLoadingControls.XML in "...Modules/StrategyOnly" and change

				<Module>
					<Directory>Heroes</Directory>
					<bLoad>1</bLoad>
				</Module>

to

				<Module>
					<Directory>Heroes</Directory>
					<bLoad>0</bLoad>
				</Module>

2) edit init.XML in Assets/Config

	<load mod="The_JMods"/>
	<load mod="Topkapi_Palace"/>
	<load mod="Partisan"/>
	<load mod="Heroes"/>
	<load mod="InitMilitaryPromos"/>
	<load mod="Modifieda4"/>

and change the line with Heroes in it

	<load mod="The_JMods"/>
	<load mod="Topkapi_Palace"/>
	<load mod="Partisan"/>
	<!--load mod="Heroes"/-->
	<load mod="InitMilitaryPromos"/>
	<load mod="Modifieda4"/>

Well, I don't want too... because of the achievements mostly and because Thunderbrd says that not all of them are so imbalanced. If they are ever made optional then achievements should maybe be national wonders (perhaps requiring great people?).

 

[JosEPh_II]

Was just kidding (Make a scenario yourself in WB if you want). But you have to admit that they are unbalanced, right?

No, I want to see someone do this when they make these claims. Too many times ppl make assertions about this is OP and that is OP, but yet they provide no visible actual proof. Just suppositions. You made the claim you back it up that's what's fair. Besides I've never seen the Dido Hero, (didn't even know we had one). Is it as good looking as the Leader Head Dido?

JosEPh

 

[Mouthwash]

No, I want to see someone do this when they make these claims. Too many times ppl make assertions about this is OP and that is OP, but yet they provide no visible actual proof. Just suppositions. You made the claim you back it up that's what's fair. Besides I've never seen the Dido Hero, (didn't even know we had one). Is it as good looking as the Leader Head Dido?

JosEPh

No.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Which part does that "NO" apply too?

JosEPh

 

[Mouthwash]

Which part does that "NO" apply too?

JosEPh

No, she's not quite as good looking.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Shucks!!

JosEPh