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I feel like I'm not really Civilization's intended audience anymore

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by sonicboom12345, Oct 30, 2016.

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  1. sonicboom12345

    sonicboom12345 Chieftain

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    I figure this must be how long-time Fallout fans feel playing FO4, or vanilla WoW fans playing modern WoW...

    I feel like Civ is no longer for me. Like I'm no longer the intended audience for it, even though I've been a devoted fan since the 1990s and bought every major game along the way since Civ II. That includes SMAC, Civ III, Civ IV, and Civ V...

    I'm really left out in the cold by Civ VI. I was left out in the cold by Civ V too, but at least that was their first foray into 1upt, they had an excuse for the shoddy AI. But now I feel like I'm playing a game that's been intentionally dumbed down.

    It's like the developers said to themselves, "Hey! What would sell more copies?" And the answer was "Players don't like games that are hard; they especially don't like losing. So let's make the game stupidly easy and unchallenging to tickle the reward centers of people's brains and make them feel like geniuses, and keep them coming back." I mean, what other explanation can there be at this point? They knew the AI was bad in V and they didn't fix it anyway. At this point, they have to see it as a feature. Like it's a good thing the AI isn't more challenging because a challenging AI wouldn't appeal to players who want to succeed without adversity.

    Civ VI is a Facebook game. It's a very good Facebook game, with very pretty graphics and very nice music. But at the end of the day is there really anything here for a long-time fan who enjoys playing a challenging and well-programmed game? The modern iterations of this franchise are just an exercise in dumbing down the gameplay for newcomers who don't know how to play, don't care about becoming better, and think losing is un-fun. It's more fun if the AI doesn't know how to upgrade its troops and is still building catapults in the 1890s, because that sets the stage for an inexperienced player to steamroll through them with tanks and infantry and feel really good about themselves. And the better they feel about themselves, the more likely it is they'll come back later on and shell out more money for expansions and DLC.

    Is this where Civ is at this point? Is it really just a hollow simulacrum of a good strategy game that old-timers like me just keep coming back to out of nostalgia? Out of false hope? Or just because we haven't learned our lesson yet? So many people are taken in by this game, but it's all nothing more than veneer. There isn't any good gameplay underneath all the pretty graphics; there just isn't. The AI doesn't know how to play, and if Civ V is any indication, it probably never will, no matter how many patches and addons. Where is the joy for people like me? Where did it go?
     
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  2. deltahawk5

    deltahawk5 Chieftain

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    Nah.
     
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  3. Kwami

    Kwami Emperor

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    The gameplay in Civ VI is by far more complex than was the gameplay in earlier games, including Civ IV. If the AI is bad, then so be it. Fix the AI! But let's not pretend that 1) The Civ IV AI was good, or that 2) Civ IV was a complicated game. Neither is true. Maybe you just got better at Civ?
     
    cooldude1128 likes this.
  4. fatgordy

    fatgordy Chicken in Pants

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    You aren't alone, I'm feeling the same. In my humble opinion, 1UPT was the downfall of the series. It screwed up the AI massively. I like Civ VI, but it's just nowhere near the perfection that was/is CivIV:BTS.
     
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  5. Babarigo

    Babarigo Chieftain

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    Civ 6 is more complex than the previous. The reason why it feels easy it's because of the terrible ai and all the unbalanced things like tech progression.
     
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  6. Kwami

    Kwami Emperor

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    You should really clean the rose tint from your glasses. BTS still had terrible AI, unfinished features (e.g. corporations), and some pretty bad mechanics (e.g. road spam). The best versions of BTS are all modded and the AI is still pretty bad in those, too.

    Besides, you're comparing a fresh, vanilla release to a game that had two expansions and years of patches and fixes. Is that really fair?
     
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  7. deltahawk5

    deltahawk5 Chieftain

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    Correct.

    The game's fanbase is continually demanding increased complexity. You can't possibly expect there not to be a few missteps along the way. Even by modern computing standards, Civ V/VI are infinitely complex games with BILLIONS of choices available in a single map.

    If you're finding the AI too predictable at this point, move to online multiplayer. Or just play Chess.
     
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  8. MyOtherName

    MyOtherName Emperor

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    "Complicated" is not "complex".
     
  9. fatgordy

    fatgordy Chicken in Pants

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    Don't get me wrong, I'm going to give Civ VI a chance. I have a lot of faith in the modding community and I know that they will put out a lot of good content that will make it better. That doesn't change the fact though that I just don't get the same enjoyment out of Civ V and VI that I did playing IV. Maybe you're right that it was the mods that did it.
     
  10. dexters

    dexters Gods & Emperors Supporter

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    not all entries will satisfy everyone. I'm pretty lucky in that I have a relatively maleable tastes which allows me to buy into whatever vision the devs have for the series.
    Civ6 is very much a Civilization game. Cities are much more focused now and not spammed willy nilly and the polish is certainly there. There are , as with any new unpatched, no expansion added Civ game, lots of things that are unbalanced and AI that's less than optimal.

    Those will get patched eventually. But for the amount of features already in the vanilla game, I'm pretty hopeful Civ6 will take us to new places and not retread the same features we've seen before in future expansions.

    I think Civ6 end game in particular hasn't lived up to the 'war by other means' concept Ed Beach envisioned at the unveiling. I am hopeful we'll get something along those lines in a future expansion. Cyber warfare is completely missing right now, and that's one area no Civ game has done, only approximated if you imagine your espionage missions are cyber missions.
     
  11. sonicboom12345

    sonicboom12345 Chieftain

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    I'm not going to claim Civ IV's AI was good. It would be more correct to say "It was good enough for what it was." The AI in Civ IV wasn't a pushover, it was a real threat if you didn't militarize/tech appropriately. I won't declare Civ IV was a perfect game either; aspects of the game were wildly off-balance, especially slavery, and in retrospect the game would've been much better if slavery were completely cut out of it.

    It's not that I got better at Civ. It's that the bar for being good at Civ has been dramatically lowered.

    In what ways is Civ VI more complex than previous? There's barely anything complex about it. The game is so unbalanced, every shade of gray has been eliminated and the whole gameplay reduced to a series of black/white, right-or-wrong choices. DO NOT settle where there are no hills, because your city will be worthless. DO NOT settle on coasts, because sea tiles are worthless. DO play aggressive early game, because warmonger penalties are minimal and AI can't defend. DO try to limit yourself to industrial districts, harbors, and commercial districts in every city, because they are the three most overpowered districts and everything else falls short. How can you say the game is complex when you can take everything you need to do to be good at the game and put them on a checklist? The devs said VI would encourage dynamic gameplay that evolves based on start and circumstance, but the reality is anything but.
     
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  12. Kwami

    Kwami Emperor

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    I didn't equate the two. I maintain that Civ VI is more complex than Civ IV and that Civ IV was not complicated. In other words, Civ VI has many more moving parts and systems than did Civ IV. However, at the moment, the AI makes it a somewhat simple game*. At the same time, Civ IV was less complex than Civ VI and was also not complicated.

    * Though, I'm sure that many not-as-good players are having a great time losing to the bad AI. So, maybe there is some complication after all.
     
  13. Dark_Jedi06

    Dark_Jedi06 "Deus ex Machina."

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    Skimmed it and saw "Civ VI is a Facebook game" and just had to lol and stop reading. :rotfl:
     
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  14. 3 EMS

    3 EMS King

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    I just have to ask. In what way is 6 more complex than 4 or its predecessors? I can see it being a more complex game for the programmers to program. Not for a player playing it.
     
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  15. Frostedthread2

    Frostedthread2 Chieftain

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    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 30, 2016
  16. sonicboom12345

    sonicboom12345 Chieftain

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    What did you think this post would add to the discussion when you made it? You have 1,200 messages and you've been here since 2006, surely you must know better by now.
     
  17. Dark_Jedi06

    Dark_Jedi06 "Deus ex Machina."

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    There's countless threads of people whining and complaining about Civ VI and making ridiculous assertions like yours that it's a "Facebook game", so this thread in itself is just wasting space. Go add your complaints to one of those many others threads so we can stop clogging up the forums with these myopic threads. If you think Civ VI is a Facebook game then nothing you write or say or read on these forums is going to change that, so it would be helpful if we could keep the discussion to what those of us who actually like the game can do or want to see the developers do to improve the game. In fact I'd love to see the mods compile all of these threads into one "I don't like Civ VI and here's why" to save us all the trouble.
     
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  18. PhilBowles

    PhilBowles Deity

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    Computer games are far more mainstream than they were in the '90s - a mainstream '90s game like the early Civ games still had an audience of fairly devoted gamers, without needing to appeal to a broader demographic. All games that aren't aimed at hardcore fans of a specific genre are easier now than they were in the '90s and the early 2000s, and Civ has been the definition of a mainstream strategy game since it was first released. The difference between Civ V and Civ IV in that regard seems fairly drastic relatively speaking, between Civ V and Civ VI notsomuch.

    There are certainly problems with the AI's natural inability to handle the more complex systems of Civs V and VI relative to older games, but part of the reduction in difficulty is undoubtedly deliberate. Even in the relatively short period since Civ IV the gaming audience has exploded, driven by the accessibility of Steam and 'entry-level' games like Hearthstone that draw people into gaming generally, leading to a far larger audience of semi-casual players than existed five years ago.
     
  19. bbbt

    bbbt Deity

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    Jesus, I feel like this site needs a new forum entitled "The new Civ is not Civ 4" for people to go post the constant threads on. They can all post congratulating each other on how they are real intellectuals who enjoyed civ when it was a real strategy game, not this mainstream dumbed-down one that obviously no real strategy fan would enjoy, which seems to be the patronizing tone of a lot of these posts.

    I'm 40 years old. I've played Civ since the first one came out when I was in high school. I've enjoyed all of them, including this one.

    The game has not fundamentally changed. And frankly, it's always been 'unchallenging' in many respects. It's always (intentionally) had a model of relentless technological progress and civilizations moving forward and cities growing. No giant civil wars, not spreading black plagues, no dark ages (that's been exclusively the realm of modding).
     
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  20. ls612

    ls612 Deity Moderator

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    Moderator Action: This thread is going nowhere fast. Closed.
     
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