I finally figured out the reason behind Babylon's weird ability.

[Kupe Navigator]

I always had a reason for why Babylon has a weird and unorthodox ability of getting a 100% tech through Eureka and why the hell it has negative scentific boost when its UA's name refers to Babylonian astrology. ( the name: Enuma Anu Enlil refers to series of stone tablet containing info on Babylonian Astrology) Well I do believe we have answer. unlike "modern" forms of science Babylonian astrology did NOT rely on observation but rather trying to look on the stars for inspiration- and in civ game that inspiration has been translated to boost in Eureka. Now why the negative on science? Well like I said before they did not have formal scientific studies but rather tried to look for inspiration in the stars. Maybe the negative in science is referring how Babylon did not have formal form of science...






Ok Now I think about I am making REALLY weak argument.
Maybe Babylon really is a badly designed civ...
( I can't tell the reason why Maya gets scientific boost to its ability while Babylon doesn't )

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

This was actually discussed a long time ago, and I believe this is a reason why the Babylonians get 100% Science from Eurekas. Not sure about the -50% Science Malus, though.

 

[Kupe Navigator]

This was actually discussed a long time ago, and I believe this is a reason why the Babylonians get 100% Science from Eurekas. Not sure about the -50% Science Malus, though.

where? I must've have missed it... it REALLY bugs me.

 

[Pikachaoomega]

I think that has to be 100% a game balance decision there, considering that they get a malus to science production but their science output is still bonkers crazy good. at first glance, it looks like it takes from their science focus, but I think if someone crunched the numbers, Babylon ends up making more science per turn than a lot of civilizations on merit of their eurekas alone

 

[Mtgkuvalda]

Babylon's uberpower - in extremely easy eurekas.
Build 3 archers, most important ancient unit - to open crossbowman, most important medieval unit.
Build 3 mines to open technology, that buffing this mines and open district, that if you build two of them you open industrialization and again buff your mines.
On water - build two fishing boats, build two harbors - and you have caravel.

In the game, any player get most important eurekas just when he play as usual. If eurekas was more hard - we not only Nerf Babylon, but have more complicated and interesting game at all.

I would suggest a solution, according to which for eureka of one era, you need to perform an action no earlier than the previous era. And at least 40% of eureka must be associated with a cultural tree. The most interesting game of Eureka goes to the very first era, when you have to turn around properly, but then most of it opens like clockwork. The whole game should go this way.

 

[Linklite]

where? I must've have missed it... it REALLY bugs me.

Possibly an exchange between myself and...someone, I can't remember who, where I pointed out Babylon as an example of a civ whose attributes don't seem very specific to that civ (unlike older civs like the English, Romans or Germans). They responded saying something somewhat similar - that because science was less formal back then, someone would just think about something and they'd invented something new (versus today where we have tons of people researching and only occasionally coming up with something as revolutionary). I didn't respond to it, but felt that it still didn't make it a Babylonian trait - the same was true for any ancient civ, so to pin it on Babylon felt like it wasn't really Babylonian.

I could be wrong and it slipped by me too. For what it's worth, I think that your argument is significantly stronger and does relate it back to Babylon specifically.

 

[Mtgkuvalda]

I often hear that people do not associate palgum with Babylon. Ironically, all the "science" of Babylon is just connected with agriculture, and Babylon, hung with science, is the same stereotype as Korea. This is more of a strictly cultural state, and, oddly enough, the game reflects just that. You don't have any cultural gain - but all cultural discoveries INSTANTLY advance you in science. Playing for Babylon is about paying a huge amount of attention to culture.

 

[Kupe Navigator]

I often hear that people do not associate palgum with Babylon. Ironically, all the "science" of Babylon is just connected with agriculture, and Babylon, hung with science, is the same stereotype as Korea. This is more of a strictly cultural state, and, oddly enough, the game reflects just that. You don't have any cultural gain - but all cultural discoveries INSTANTLY advance you in science. Playing for Babylon is about paying a huge amount of attention to culture.

Palgum is VERY Babylonian... like may Mesopotamian civ Babyon had to deal with rivers and Babylon became masters of rivers.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Palgum is VERY Babylonian... like may Mesopotamian civ Babyon had to deal with rivers and Babylon became masters of rivers.

All the different places in Mesopotamia had to master rivers including Assyria too. Not to mention Egypt and the Harappans. I think for those reasons is why something like the Palgum would not have been my first choice for a Babylonian unique infrastructure. Not because it doesn't feel very Babylonian but they weren't the only civ to master rivers. Even in the Civilopedia they mention how the fabled "Hanging Gardens of Babylon" might have actually been located in Nineveh instead, built by irrigation channels.

 

[Linklite]

I think that has to be 100% a game balance decision there, considering that they get a malus to science production but their science output is still bonkers crazy good. at first glance, it looks like it takes from their science focus, but I think if someone crunched the numbers, Babylon ends up making more science per turn than a lot of civilizations on merit of their eurekas alone

It depends. I'm doing better for Eurekas, but I've always gone for the hard science route for most things. To break even, you need to get the Eureka for, what, 40% of techs? Certainly doable if you happen to get the Great Library. Otherwise, it really depends on your playstyle, and your initial start would probably crawl. I'm not sure that it is instawin on science for most players. The big advantage is that you don't have to worry about campuses until later, just get TDs and IZs out
, which gets you great production and culture, which in turn gears you for the SV or CV. I mean, it's still good for science, but it's more about letting you focus on other things than science per se, to my understanding anyway.

 

[Kupe Navigator]

Not because it doesn't feel very Babylonian but they weren't the only civ to master rivers

you could say that to many Unique Infrastructure in the civs... for example Mayans weren't only civs who looked at the stars and Koreans were not only civs to have education focused culture... ect.

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

you could say that to many Unique Infrastructure in the civs... for example Mayans weren't only civs who looked at the stars and Koreans were not only civs to have education focused culture... ect.

But...

THE MAYANS HAVE FIGURED OUT THE STARSSSSSS...!!

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

you could say that to many Unique Infrastructure in the civs... for example Mayans weren't only civs who looked at the stars and Koreans were not only civs to have education focused culture... ect.

True but ideally I think it would have been cool if they could have gotten basically the unique Observatory district like you mentioned in your OP how Babylon science was linked with Astrology. It would somehow have to play different than the current Maya Observatory though.

That way Maya could have gotten a unique Holy Site.

 

[Kupe Navigator]

True but ideally I think it would have been cool if they could have gotten basically the unique Observatory district like you mentioned in your OP how Babylon science was linked with Astrology. It would somehow have to play different than the current Maya Observatory though.

That way Maya could have gotten a unique Holy Site.

or make Observatory a hybrid of Compass/Holy Site by making it generate Great Prophet Points.

 

[Yzman]

It depends. I'm doing better for Eurekas, but I've always gone for the hard science route for most things. To break even, you need to get the Eureka for, what, 40% of techs? Certainly doable if you happen to get the Great Library. Otherwise, it really depends on your playstyle, and your initial start would probably crawl. I'm not sure that it is instawin on science for most players. The big advantage is that you don't have to worry about campuses until later, just get TDs and IZs out
, which gets you great production and culture, which in turn gears you for the SV or CV. I mean, it's still good for science, but it's more about letting you focus on other things than science per se, to my understanding anyway.

I disagree actually. I think with Babylon you still should build campuses for the great scientist points. People forget it, but the many eurekas actually come from GS. You want to gather up all of them that you can. Babylon starts really fast with science and then heavily slows in the end game so you need to be kinda far ahead by that point.

Babylon was one of my easier science victories...but also took a while. I felt it was slower at end.

 

[Banazir864]

I always thought Babylon would be better if it’s ability applied to culture (with free Code of Laws, of course). That would keep them from getting too much military early. Of course, they might monopolize GWAM too much, but still...