I find this more disturbing

[knowltok2]

More Disturbing

To sum up, the Islamic world doesn't like the US, Doesn't believe that Arabs were involved in 9/11, and don't think US action in Afganistan is justified. The poll was done by Gallup, which I view as fairly reliable in their polling methods.

Thoughts and opinions on this...

I find it interesting that some of the questions were censored in some countries. I also find it amazing that Kuwait is one of the nations that likes the US the least.

Well, discuss.

 

[Zwelgje]

Hmm quite interesting, but didn't we know most of this? Arabs don't like the US (in general) and I think it would be naieve to think the 9/11 bombings would change that. Maybe arabs will feel sorry for the people involved but surely not for the US.
I am wondering if you asked the questions "do you think the actions in Afghanistan are justifiable" and "how do you feel about Bush" to a European audience what kind of answers you would get. Probably not as extreme as the Arab answers but don't expect a huge majority to support the actions in Afghanistan or Bush either. I think Bush is the most disliked US president in modern times.

 

[Greadius]

One has to remember several things when one sees these polls.

Basically, the Arabs haven't been told about 9/11. They don't understand the connection to Afghanistan, they don't believe that Arabs did it because they've been TOLD the Jews did it. If you only have one source of information, and it tells you something you like, you tend to believe it.

These aren't the opinion of people that know what is going on... they've been fed that the evil imperialist satan is killing innocent Afghans and repressing Muslims; their opinions are likely to reflect it.

I read an interesting article from a report who stayed with an old Pakistani friend a few months ago. He said that he was amazed how ignorant people there were about 9/11 and what the Afghan war was about. He noticed an amazing change in sympathy and opinion once they were told the truth.

More than anything, I think this poll reflects the importance of a free press which doesn't exist in most of these nations.

 

[knowltok2]

Originally posted by Greadius
One has to remember several things when one sees these polls.

Basically, the Arabs haven't been told about 9/11. They don't understand the connection to Afghanistan, they don't believe that Arabs did it because they've been TOLD the Jews did it. If you only have one source of information, and it tells you something you like, you tend to believe it.

These aren't the opinion of people that know what is going on... they've been fed that the evil imperialist satan is killing innocent Afghans and repressing Muslims; their opinions are likely to reflect it.

I read an interesting article from a report who stayed with an old Pakistani friend a few months ago. He said that he was amazed how ignorant people there were about 9/11 and what the Afghan war was about. He noticed an amazing change in sympathy and opinion once they were told the truth.

More than anything, I think this poll reflects the importance of a free press which doesn't exist in most of these nations.

This was what disturbed me. Not that they don't like the US, or that they think Afganistan was unjustified, but that they don't seem to think Arabs did it.

I would like to see the stats on those who thought 9/11 was justified. Did they think arabs did it? If not, then what was it justified by?

Civ1-Addict: You make a valid point about your questions to a European audience, and I'd love to see the results, but I'd also like to see the results on the 'arabs being responsible for 9/11' question. What do the European people think on this one? Do they disbelieve the US position on this?

That is really the crux of the matter. If you think someone else (Jews, Pres. Bush, whoever) is responsible for 9/11 then Afganistan is totally unjustified. However, if you do believe what the US says about Al Queda, and their being based in Afganistan, your range of opinion is goig to be different, even if you are against the action in Afganistan. You may not agree, but you know why. That is totally diffent than not knowing why.

The point is that if you don't believe the US on who did this, than it is quite logical to believe that the US is empire building, or exterminating, or something along those lines. I would hazard that most Europeans don't believe this. Correct me if I am wrong.

 

[Simon Darkshade]

It does point to the mass disemination of false and misleading information in Arab world regarding the circumstances, casualties and perpetrators of the atrocities of September 11th.

It is a logical flown on argument that if Arabs and poor innocent Sheikh Bin Laden had nothing to do with the bombings, despite explicit confessions and evidence to the contrary, then the liberation of Afghanistan was a foul act of crusader imperialism. It is of course, incorrect, and utter bullsh*t.
What they think, and the fact they can't see the wood for the cemetery trees is utterly irrelevant to the facts of the matter, and so, the current thinking of everyday Muslims in this regard matters not a whit.

 

[ainwood]

Originally posted by Greadius
One has to remember several things when one sees these polls.

Basically, the Arabs haven't been told about 9/11. They don't understand the connection to Afghanistan, they don't believe that Arabs did it because they've been TOLD the Jews did it. If you only have one source of information, and it tells you something you like, you tend to believe it.

These aren't the opinion of people that know what is going on... they've been fed that the evil imperialist satan is killing innocent Afghans and repressing Muslims; their opinions are likely to reflect it.

I read an interesting article from a report who stayed with an old Pakistani friend a few months ago. He said that he was amazed how ignorant people there were about 9/11 and what the Afghan war was about. He noticed an amazing change in sympathy and opinion once they were told the truth.

More than anything, I think this poll reflects the importance of a free press which doesn't exist in most of these nations.

Completely agree but.....

Who's to say that the western media isn't also feeding half-truths etc?

I certainly don't think that the media on either side is giving a completely unbiased showing to all of the issues. I don't think we have the same degree of censorship in the West as they appear to in many muslim countries, but I still feel there is some.

 

[Greadius]

Originally posted by knowltok2
If you think someone else (Jews, Pres. Bush, whoever) is responsible for 9/11 then Afganistan is totally unjustified.

I disagree; I think the autrocity the Taliban was commiting seperate from any terrorist involvement was reason enough to warrant some intervention, although I would have preferred the British method of quietly buying off the factions to do all the fighting rather than the outright bomb them until they give up strategy.
And, bin Laden has been the prime suspect in many other terrorist attacks... assuming, as we are, that 9/11 was purely a terrorist attack and bin Laden had nothing to do with THAT attack but DID have to do with ANY others, it is still justifyable. The war is about stopping terrorism, not extracting revenge.

Originally posted by ainwood
Who's to say that the western media isn't also feeding half-truths etc?

I certainly don't think that the media on either side is giving a completely unbiased showing to all of the issues. I don't think we have the same degree of censorship in the West as they appear to in many muslim countries, but I still feel there is some.

I disagree completely, and the fact that you made those statements is the perfect back up. The Western media is endlessly diverse; there is no limit to the opinions about who did what you can find. Most legitimate sources tend to agree, although to focus shifts to reflect the agenda. However, any seasoned media recipient can discern the spin, and hearing the same story from several different sources people are undoubtedly exposed to, they can figure out the 'truth' close enough as it fits them. What sources are legitimate is for the audience to decide. Contrasting that with most of the Arab nations questioned, they have one media source that is government owned, controlled, and censored whose purpose it is to reflect the governments agenda. To many of these governments, it is vital to build a fuming hatred for the U.S. to detract from their own failings as leaders; its a convenient smokescreen that they gladly play along to. The free flow of information is not seen as a desirable government goal.
This poll should tell them that it is working, although I doubt they have much understanding of why polling is important.

 

[VoodooAce]

Agreed.

This is just the result of misinformed masses being told lies by their governments.

I don't think their is that much sympathy for the criminals of 9/11, there is just some question, as far as they're concerned, as to who those criiminals are.

This is far less a sympton of anti-Americanism or hatred for the west as it is a symptom of a lack of free press.

Sure, this is both unfortunate and dangerous. But we can't forget that it isn't so much the fault of the masses as it is the fault of their leadership.

 

[knowltok2]

Originally posted by Greadius
I disagree; I think the autrocity the Taliban was commiting seperate from any terrorist involvement was reason enough to warrant some intervention, although I would have preferred the British method of quietly buying off the factions to do all the fighting rather than the outright bomb them until they give up strategy.
And, bin Laden has been the prime suspect in many other terrorist attacks... assuming, as we are, that 9/11 was purely a terrorist attack and bin Laden had nothing to do with THAT attack but DID have to do with ANY others, it is still justifyable. The war is about stopping terrorism, not extracting revenge.

Sorry, I should have clarified that it is completely justified to their mindset. You are right that there is plenty of justification without 9/11. I was trying o state what arab street opinion might be, and should have made myself more clear.

Voodoo, you are completely right about the leadership issue. The only thing to keep in mind is that leadership over there is not limitted to their government. The religious sector is a huge source of their disinformation. Consider the literacy rate and the lack of radios and TVs and then think about how these people get their information.

The other thing we have to keep in mind is that even though it may be the fault of their leaders, many of these people hate the US, and we have to deal with that objective reality, even if the root cause is not our doing.

 

[Padma]

Wow! This thread could get fractious!

I wasn't surprised to read this story. A couple months ago I read a piece by someone covering Pakistan, who reported that the government news service was completely disbelieved, for the many falsehoods it had spread in the past. Therefore people took the news they could get, second-, third-, and fourth-hand. Usually from their imams. A story thoroughly discredited in the western press, but widely believed in Pakistan (and other states) was that it was Jewish suicide bombers! That they had warned all the Jews who worked in the WTC to stay home that day! (What about all the Jews who died? Well, er, they ignored the warning. Or, maybe, they, um, decided to martyr themselves so it wouldn't LOOK like a Jewish conspiracy! Yeah! That's the ticket!) You can lay out all the proof you want, but it won't be believed, because it's not what they WANT to believe.

And don't forget, many of these leaders/governments have long had a vested intrest in keeping up the masses' hatred of the West/U.S. If they were angry at us, then they were not directing their anger at their leaders. It's easier to keep oppressed people oppressed if you can make them feel united against some outside force.

That's enough flame-fodder for now.

 

[amadeus]

Originally posted by VoodooAce
Agreed.

This is just the result of misinformed masses being told lies by their governments.

I actually kind of wonder if that many people hate the United States...we know what happens to pro-Western people in Iran, etc.

This morning on "Fox and Friends", someone from Kuwait e-mailed the show saying that most people in Kuwait were very supportive of the U.S. and grateful for what we did during the Gulf War.

 

[sgrig]

Originally posted by rmsharpe

I actually kind of wonder if that many people hate the United States...we know what happens to pro-Western people in Iran, etc.

Well, even here in Britain, where access to information is completely free, lots of people hate the USA (by that I mean USA as a country, not necessarily its people), especially people with foreign backgrounds, such as Pakistanis, Arabs, Chinese, but not exclusively. Many English people very much dislike the US as well.

I guess it hasn't got that much to do with the amount of available information, even if information is available, people can choose to believe it or not to, depending on their internal beliefs and ideas. For example, if there is a report in the media that a US helicopter crashed due to technical reasons, people who have something against the US government, interpret it as lies and think that actually it was shot down.

Concerning WTC, imo, many people around the world were initially happy about it, because they saw it as a blow to USA as a superpower and did not stop to think that it was actually innocent people who were killed. When people thought about what actually happenned, I believe, everyone felt sympathy for the innocent people who were killed and lost their loved ones.

Many Arabs feel that the United States is specifically targetting muslim countries, for example they support Israel against Palestine, countless muslim countries are on America's 'black list' (Libya, Sudan, Somalia, Yemen, Syria, Iraq, Iran). So many Arabs see this as an American-Jewish conspiracy to destroy the muslim world, claims which I think are just a bit over-exaggerated!

As I said, anti-American feelings are not limited to muslims. You should've seen some Russian online forums during the Olympics and just after! I was surprised how many anti-American feelings there are! Even though I am myself not a great fan of the US (sorry ), I still found the emotions to be far over the top!

 

[sgrig]

Concerning Kuwait, etc.

According to some of my Arab friends, countries like Kuwait, Saudi Arabia are sometimes considered by Arabs to be treacherous to the Arab world, by being allies with the United States. However, I do think that Kuwaiti people prefer their government to be allies with USA, rather than be absorbed by Iraq!

 

[amadeus]

LOL, Saudi Arabia being an "ally" to the U.S. is just a diplomatic tap-dance.

The only thing the Saudis want is to not be invaded by Saddam Hussein, and Iraq wouldn't do it as long as we're there.

 

[andycapp]

The level of hostility in the Islamic world should come as no suprise to peole in the West, particularly since September 11. However, the Western world's (not just American) ignorance of the world outside their comfortable existence no longer comes as any suprise to me - and it does explain some of the naive and simplistic responses (within the West) to September 11.

sgrig raises some very good points about British (and resident foreigner's within Britain) attitudes toward America . I think the same could be said about attitudes towards America in most other Western countries including Australia. I think many non-Americans (within the Western world) feel smugly that Muslim hostility is directed only at Americans - I think that conclusion is false.

The sources that generate this hostility in the Islamic world are not just corrupt governments but more importantly significant sections of the religious heirarchy. An article (which I cannot, unfortunately, find a link for) by author Yossi Klein Halevi is worth quoting from:

"That pathological response is not just the result of anger at perceived injustice, but of years of hate indoctrination in mosques and from state controlled media."

"Humanistic Muslims need to face the lethal consequences of their theology towards non-Muslims. Apologetics about the nobility of Islam are not good enough any more. Just as much of Christianty has confronted its anti-Jewish theology, and many Jews are struggling to uproot the exclusivist strain within Judaism, tolerant Muslims can no longer afford to defend Islam's more problematic concepts. We are all heirs to complex religious traditions; the obligation of believers is to preserve the beauty of their faith while transforming its negative residues."

Yossi Klein Halevi's latest book is At the Entrance to the Garden of Eden: A Jew's Search for God with Christians and Muslims in the Holy Land.

The article I quoted from by the same author appeared in the Melbourne 'Age' newspaper. His perceptive insights go to the heart of the matter IMO.

PS. If people want to read the whole article let me know and I'll post it.

 

[Karnokki]

I am not, by any stretch of the imagination, what you might call well-informed on Arab culture or politics, but have done a bit of reading on the subject in an attempt to satisfy my curiosity.

As a whole it seems the Arab world has not caught up to the modern age. The Arab peoples apparently tend to equate modernization with westernization or possibly more to the point - Americanization. There appears to be a general dissatisfaction with the notion of moving forward through modernization, as it is defined by the west, but no viable alternative has been forthcoming from Arabic society. There also appears to be a general envy of American affluence, which can be, and is, easily turned into anger, resentment and hatred. Especially since there is no means for the people in the Arab world to attain a comparable standard of living. The wealth is there, but Arab society lacks the trickle-down theory of economics. Government corruption is (if this is possible) even worse than the corruption one experiences while playing Civ III.

I have also read that Saudi Arabia, supposedly a friend to America, encourages the Mullahs to preach radical anti-Americanism and propoganda. I assume this gives the youth of the country a direction to look other than their own corrupt government, and the Saudi Arabian government, I understand, is quite corrupt. If the populace vents their anger and frustration toward the west they will be less likely to question their own leaders. Ahh, everybody loves a good scapegoat...and a warm gun.

Originally posted by andycapp

I think many non-Americans (within the Western world) feel smugly that Muslim hostility is directed only at Americans - I think that conclusion is false.

This is possibly quite true. Yet it remains, one can still enjoy the view from One Canada Square or for that matter the Eiffel Tower...


Off topic a bit, but I do find it interesting to note there was a point in history when Muslim society was synonomous with modernization. Some accounts I have read indicate that during the crusades the Muslim peoples were far more forward thinking than their Christian counterparts. But this is probably a topic for the history channel.

 

[andycapp]

Originally posted by Karnokki
This is possibly quite true. Yet it remains, one can still enjoy the view from One Canada Square or for that matter the Eiffel Tower...

Hopefully people will continue to enjoy the views from prominent landmarks and yet it only takes one bomb or jet liner to ruin the view and the feeling of security.

al Qaeda plots to mount similar attacks on other cities are now coming to light, such as the Rialto Towers (twin 50 storey office blocks) in Melbourne, according to a man arrested in India with (alleged) links to al Qaeda.

There is no surety that the Eiffel Tower and Canadian landmarks have not been similarly targetted.

 

[scorch]

i think the link is broken. it says something about nuclear fall out.

 

[andycapp]

Originally posted by scorch
i think the link is broken. it says something about nuclear fall out.

Sorch,

It's still there, click on 'World' in the top left corner.

 

[basta72]

You may have heard it already since its old news. But do you remember the video that claimed to show Arab women and children in Palestine celebrating shortly after 9/11?

It was a fake, they where celebrating something completely diffrent. But how can you tell the diffrence between the truth and the lies/desinformation in western media? This video for example, every TV-channel showed it in theír news. Most people automaticly belives that they are watching the truth. The damage had already been done even if it turned out to be a fake. Perhaps it was the news about the faked video that really was the faked news? You wouldn´t know.

I dont belive that you ever can justify the killing of innocent people. But who´s innocent? The Talibans? The People in WTC? None? All? It depends on who you are asking.