The Emperor
Chieftain
Since I'm currently residing in Israel, I'm pretty updated about the world politics and terrorist bombings. Do you have an interesting opinion regarding this situation? Do you live in a country that suffers so much?
I know you hate it, but what the heck - Politics
- Thread starter The Emperor
- Start date
Richard III
Duke of Gloucester
My condolences. I live in Canada; the worst I can say is we suffer by embarrassment. You guys have real issues to deal with, where most of my countrymen we send combat troops to Afghanistan and we can't even decide what to do with people who surrender to us.
All I have to say otherwise is:
1) Welcome to civfanatics, but if you poke around to see what arguments some Israeli civfanatics have been in, you'll know that opening a thread like this is gonna mean a whole lot of suffering
2) I'm fascinated by the recent stories about troops taking issue with their orders in the WBank (you know what I mean I'm sure)
3) I'm of the "Israel needs to target actual radicals more and the mass of the Palestinian population less" ilk, and I say so because its both sides' civilians I'm most worried about, and because I think a policy that gives the ordinary Palestinian a greater stake in peace has better odds of success in the long term than most alternatives. Israel is in an impossible situation, but I do think there are things is could have been done or could be done that would arrest the spiral of escalating havoc
R.III
All I have to say otherwise is:
1) Welcome to civfanatics, but if you poke around to see what arguments some Israeli civfanatics have been in, you'll know that opening a thread like this is gonna mean a whole lot of suffering
2) I'm fascinated by the recent stories about troops taking issue with their orders in the WBank (you know what I mean I'm sure)
3) I'm of the "Israel needs to target actual radicals more and the mass of the Palestinian population less" ilk, and I say so because its both sides' civilians I'm most worried about, and because I think a policy that gives the ordinary Palestinian a greater stake in peace has better odds of success in the long term than most alternatives. Israel is in an impossible situation, but I do think there are things is could have been done or could be done that would arrest the spiral of escalating havoc
R.III
VoodooAce
Emperor
I hadn't even heard of the stories about the soldiers refusals...
Just read a couple stories on it and, of course, it is very interesting. I mean, wow!
These reservists, officers and men that are greatly battle tested. What they are saying is that they will gladly defend Israel with their lives, but they won't do it on the other side of the 'Green Line', the pre-1967 borders. The are arguing against Israel's encroachment on Palestinian lands....probably the root cause of most of the violence there.
These guys are heroes. It would be nice if the Palestinians were to respond in kind.....maybe this could be the start of something. As long as Sharon or Arafat don't nip this 'dangerous' movement in the bud, that is.
Sharon's already talking Court Martials, of course. But he has said that, seeing as they are combat vets, he MIGHT be willing to discuss the situation with them.
Regardless, it's taken a LOT of courage for these guys to come forward and stand up for what they believe in.
I'm very interested to here some other opinions on these guys.....though I can imagine some of the war mongers won't like them.
Just read a couple stories on it and, of course, it is very interesting. I mean, wow!
These reservists, officers and men that are greatly battle tested. What they are saying is that they will gladly defend Israel with their lives, but they won't do it on the other side of the 'Green Line', the pre-1967 borders. The are arguing against Israel's encroachment on Palestinian lands....probably the root cause of most of the violence there.
These guys are heroes. It would be nice if the Palestinians were to respond in kind.....maybe this could be the start of something. As long as Sharon or Arafat don't nip this 'dangerous' movement in the bud, that is.
Sharon's already talking Court Martials, of course. But he has said that, seeing as they are combat vets, he MIGHT be willing to discuss the situation with them.
Regardless, it's taken a LOT of courage for these guys to come forward and stand up for what they believe in.
I'm very interested to here some other opinions on these guys.....though I can imagine some of the war mongers won't like them.
Wolfe Tone
Which Way Did He Go?
I do not have all the facts regarding the situation in Israel so i will reserve my comment until i have all the facts.
I live in Ireland as you might of heard we have had just a little trouble
here over the last 700 years.
I live in Ireland as you might of heard we have had just a little trouble
here over the last 700 years.
Greadius
:yeah:
I'm an ignorant American, but I live far away from northeast so I've not been directly effected.
I have deep sympathy for anyone that has to live in those conditions. I can't imagine living just miles away from people who actively want to kill me.
Politics is fine in this forum. I am persuing a degree in Political Science with an international focus, so I'm always up for what other people think and have to say; especially the international folk.
As far as Israel goes, I think those reservists that refuse to fight are a HUGE step in the peace process. If only more people on the Palestinian side, the average people like shopkeepers and mothers, would say we're SICK of this and we're not going to take it anymore the peace process would take off.
But they don't. Hopefully those Israeli's will inspire people on both sides to stop killing one another.
In the meantime I agree with Ariel Sharon's strong arm tactics. In my opinion, it has gotten to that point where Israel's military superiority will become insignificant if they're too afraid to use it. Naturally, I believe there is a lot he could do to help the peace process, like remove the most recent settlements.
Its easy to say there is blood on the hands of both sides. Unfortunately I have extreme difficulties sympathizing with people who would want bombs to go off at pizza parlors. In my opinion, there is something much sicker about targeting unsuspecting civilians than at least attempting to target the actual purpertrators.
I have deep sympathy for anyone that has to live in those conditions. I can't imagine living just miles away from people who actively want to kill me.
Politics is fine in this forum. I am persuing a degree in Political Science with an international focus, so I'm always up for what other people think and have to say; especially the international folk.
As far as Israel goes, I think those reservists that refuse to fight are a HUGE step in the peace process. If only more people on the Palestinian side, the average people like shopkeepers and mothers, would say we're SICK of this and we're not going to take it anymore the peace process would take off.
But they don't. Hopefully those Israeli's will inspire people on both sides to stop killing one another.
In the meantime I agree with Ariel Sharon's strong arm tactics. In my opinion, it has gotten to that point where Israel's military superiority will become insignificant if they're too afraid to use it. Naturally, I believe there is a lot he could do to help the peace process, like remove the most recent settlements.
Its easy to say there is blood on the hands of both sides. Unfortunately I have extreme difficulties sympathizing with people who would want bombs to go off at pizza parlors. In my opinion, there is something much sicker about targeting unsuspecting civilians than at least attempting to target the actual purpertrators.
Ptolemy
Chieftain
I'm from Denmark. That's a very small country in the cold Northeurope. We, the danes, have not fought a "real" war for a 150 years. (No, I do not consider our participating in the Second World War as a real war in the state of Denmark, we were "just" occupied.
Generally in Denmark we want the souvereign state of Israel to survive but we do also want them to draw their troops back to the boarders from pre-1967 and we do not accept any further settlements are terrorist acts. (I myself consider the settlements as a kind of terror acts because the meaning with them are to make Formerpalestina to an Israel-ethnic country.)
I simpatize with every human being who has to live under the conditions there are in Israel and Former Palestina. And by taking this point of view I think we have found a way to start a peacefull way of life. If the Israeli people could realize that the palestinians live under just as horrible lifeconditions as they do and vice versa it could start a move in the minds of the people in Israel (Both Jews and Muslims)
Still there are some people who could stop every act of peace and I am thinking on Palestininan terrorists :shottie: and politicians and I am thinking of Iraeli terrorists (Read: The wrong use of the military
which kills lots of civil Palestinians.) and politicians.
Sharon is the most dangerous person in this game. He is an old madman who I can not understand could be elected to lead a modern democratic human state as Israel. He is a guy that only uses force :tank: and has not yet started ANY kind of negotiation with the Palestinians (Arafat). His demands to Arafat are sometimes headless. Sharon must accept that it is not Arafat or the palestinian people's fault that there are terror acts in Israel and that the only side who can stop this conflict are the most powerful in the conflict: Israel.
If Arafat can bring peace to a new Palestinian state he could build and organize a new state. It has been impossible to create a new state during these insane acts of war and if he got peace he might be able to construct a state that could arrest the Palestinian terrorists without fear of being overthrown (Revolution in the country). It might also be able to enjoy many years at peace with Israel
Well that's just the opinion from a dane who has not excperienced any kind of terrorism or war and my reply may not be taken serious because of that but you wanted international opinions so this was mine
Generally in Denmark we want the souvereign state of Israel to survive but we do also want them to draw their troops back to the boarders from pre-1967 and we do not accept any further settlements are terrorist acts. (I myself consider the settlements as a kind of terror acts because the meaning with them are to make Formerpalestina to an Israel-ethnic country.)
I simpatize with every human being who has to live under the conditions there are in Israel and Former Palestina. And by taking this point of view I think we have found a way to start a peacefull way of life. If the Israeli people could realize that the palestinians live under just as horrible lifeconditions as they do and vice versa it could start a move in the minds of the people in Israel (Both Jews and Muslims)
Still there are some people who could stop every act of peace and I am thinking on Palestininan terrorists :shottie: and politicians and I am thinking of Iraeli terrorists (Read: The wrong use of the military
which kills lots of civil Palestinians.) and politicians.Sharon is the most dangerous person in this game. He is an old madman who I can not understand could be elected to lead a modern democratic human state as Israel. He is a guy that only uses force :tank: and has not yet started ANY kind of negotiation with the Palestinians (Arafat). His demands to Arafat are sometimes headless. Sharon must accept that it is not Arafat or the palestinian people's fault that there are terror acts in Israel and that the only side who can stop this conflict are the most powerful in the conflict: Israel.
If Arafat can bring peace to a new Palestinian state he could build and organize a new state. It has been impossible to create a new state during these insane acts of war and if he got peace he might be able to construct a state that could arrest the Palestinian terrorists without fear of being overthrown (Revolution in the country). It might also be able to enjoy many years at peace with Israel
Well that's just the opinion from a dane who has not excperienced any kind of terrorism or war and my reply may not be taken serious because of that but you wanted international opinions so this was mine
VoodooAce
Emperor
Hey, me too!
Yup. Its time now for that majority of Palestinians that say they don't support the terrorists there to step up and have their voices heard. The need to express bitterness not only when Israelis murder Palestinians, but when Palestinians murder Israelis.
I don't know if its a HUGE step toward peace, but I truly believe it could be.
Those settlements are a PART of Sharon's strong arm tactics. There are varying degrees of 'sickness', but Sharon really isn't far behind Arafat. Sharon is getting what he wanted, basically. He's managed to get himself elected because of all the death and destruction he helped to initiate.
That it is. There ARE varying degrees of sickness, I just don't rate Sharon much below any of the other warmongers there.
