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I Like Civ V better than Civ IV

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by Misterboy, Oct 12, 2010.

  1. |Guillotine|

    |Guillotine| Chieftain

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    To answer this, i prefer a STRATEGY game to have STRATEGY behind it, not lets stack 100 units and go to town. Id prefer to have to move my units strategically. That in fact is WAY better in Civ 5. Civ 4 had alot of concepts in it left behind by 5 sure, but could they eventually come back? Yes. I enjoy this game much better then 4. Sure theres its issues, but every game has them. Stop being such a downer, and enjoy what you have.
     
  2. Misterboy

    Misterboy Modern Major General

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    When we reply to forum posts, we ask that one read the post before replying. :goodjob:

    Actually, no, I did not dodge the question. I answered it rather succinctly. You may have missed the title of my OP, "I like Civ V better than Civ IV".

    Now, as my tongue pulls out of my cheek, I'll elaborate by repeating some of what I already wrote: I cannot go back to Civ IV now. Civ V is so much better. That is, "this new game is worth my time more than what I'm playing now".

    The only reason I brought up Civ IV is simply because I keep seeing people poo-poo Civ V because they are comparing apples to oranges. I felt Civ V could use a bit of love and I did enjoy the opportunity to explain why I felt that way.

    It would be wiser for me to keep my mouth shut and ignore any hate, and just know that I like what I like. But after a fresh Civ V session, I couldn't help but throw out some love to this game that is sucking so much of my time.
     
  3. Öjevind Lång

    Öjevind Lång Deity

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    I think I do too, or at least will when the bugs, imbalances and certain other things (heaps of them) have been fixed. But I have the utmost confidence in Jon Shafer and his crew - less so in the number crunchers at 2K Games.
     
  4. Misterboy

    Misterboy Modern Major General

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    I agree. So far I haven't seen anything that can't be fixed.

    Considering Jon Shafer is the epitome of the ideal modder, I have no doubt he will fix things if able. The only question is how long a leash 2K will give him.

    I also realized (or am now better able to explain) one of the things I really like: I don't feel like the game caters to me. It doesn't stroke my ego by allowing me to manipulate the AI in ways a real human would never allow.
     
  5. Mustakrakish

    Mustakrakish In 'Node' We Trust

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    Because you couldn't do it doesn't mean it's impossible. First few games I didn't understand WTH was going on in diplomacy, why he's angry with me, why this one's attacking me etc... But I learned. Now I know why someone became angry, why he attacks and I know how to keep them friendly. And it's definitely not impossible to keep them friendly once you understand the game, you just have to pick the right friends (as for example don't expect to be loved on your continent if you're aggressively expanding ignoring their requests etc). It might be damned hard, because of one problem. And the problem is as I'm sure many have said, interface... Not seeing it "written down" so to speak, not seeing the relationships with other civs and CS, not knowing the values and impacts of certain actions, not knowing how far can you go before AI will be enraged... etc.
    But from the next patch announcement we know they're working on it, so...
     
  6. dexters

    dexters Gods & Emperors Supporter

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    Diplomacy has issues. Firaxis/Jon has noted it will be fixed. But the parts that work makes sense.

    In Civ4, and Civ3 also, it was easy to bamboozle the AI. Play nice, and take down each AI one at a time. There was a famous strategy called the 'oscillating' war, which essentially meant you dow on one, known them down just enough to slow them down and maybe take a city or two. Get peace plus goodies, then start on a fresh Civ and do the same.

    Still possible in this game, but the warmonger rep hit seems strong, and if you going going it alone, pretty soon your neighbors would gang up on you. To stop you. That's probably why some defensive wars spiral out of control, because the human players still think its Civ4.

    Happened to me on Rome on an emperor game. I was doing well, took out Askia and all of Japan except on city, and Washington/Bismarck dow on me. I rush rifles and was about to retake Kyoto.

    The game was lost when the points leader Suleiman dow on Bismarck. blitz through germans on the left, then dow on me. I was literraly fighting a war on 2 fronts, and one long front with borders I shared with Germany and America. Freaking insane game.
     
  7. ohioastronomy

    ohioastronomy King

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    The underlying logic of the diplomacy system is hostile to co-operation. The AIs will jump you if you are weak, and there is no benefit in peace other than self-preservation in picking a fight that is too tough.

    It's an awful framework regardless of how it is implemented. I strongly prefer systems, for example, where if you go to war you *lose something.* You know, it costs you extra money, people get unhappy, you lose foreign trade, and so on.

    The diplomacy in Civ 5 is wretched for me because war is free, it can last forever, and the AI is programmed to do so whenever it thinks it can get away from it. I detest playing a Civ game in that setup.
     
  8. Mustakrakish

    Mustakrakish In 'Node' We Trust

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    Yep, in my current game I was leading in score by a mile, got the biggest empire by systematically "acquiring" city-states and one hostile nation, strongest army... and what you think? The whole known world DOWed on me. I mean the weaker ones just ganged up on a big one with heartbreaking statements like this Washington's: "Destruction is probably the fate that awaits me, but if I back down only eventual defeat awaits me anyway". :lol:
    They gave me a hard time... :lol: It's good I had Persian golden age going on for the length of the war.
    Very interesting and reassuring as I thought they only declared if you are weak.

    I also must say that while Alex loves to DOW, Catherine has done a lot of steamrolling in my games (She's a monster!), but she NEVER EVER declared on me... not eventually, not EVER... Be I strong or weak.
     
  9. Mustakrakish

    Mustakrakish In 'Node' We Trust

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    read my above post...
     
  10. pagh80

    pagh80 Warlord

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    You are not the only one which have made this argument, and it is an absolutely horrible argument. Why would you NOT compare it to the current version of Civ IV. That is the version people play. It dont make sense to compare it to a obsolete version of a game that noone plays anymore.

    By very different do you mean: An AI walking past my costal city on the other side of the continent, where i have stationed my navy, and then accusing me for massing units near his border.
    Or moving a settler all the way to the other side of the contient, settling next to me, and then complain about me settling cities next to him.
    Personally i dont call that *differently. I call that poor, primitive and buggy AI behavior.


    Now there is alot of good stuff in Civ V, but i think the points and arguments you are trying to make in your post is completely wrong.
     
  11. Mr.Carbohydrate

    Mr.Carbohydrate Chieftain

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    At the moment they will be hostile with you before you can try and act friendly to them. I also spent one game trying to be as friendly as possible to another civ and they still spent it sneering at me.

    Not knowing the values is okay, but you can still very easily tell if they are hostile or not and what constitutes a positive and negative action are 95% obvious.

    Where my main problem stems with the AI is not the unknown. Rather how inhuman they all act. They don't want to be your ally. Ever. Simply because it undermines their chances of winning.
     
  12. Mustakrakish

    Mustakrakish In 'Node' We Trust

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    Then how the heck I was able to do that!? Certainly not because of my magnificent civ skills... They DO eventually want to win, so yes eventually when there is only you 2 left he/she WILL become hostile. But what do you want? For you to be BFF even if there's only 2 of you left?
    Uh... here is another example to add to my previous post, I was friends with Catherine from day one so to speak. She was steamrolling everyone while I was going for cultural. When she finished everyone off, there were only 2 of us left. I was 30-40 turns away from cultural victory. She then withdrawn our coop pact saying: "your world wonder hoarding has became a problem" becoming angry. She still didn't attack and I won. What else would you possibly want from her!? :crazyeye:
     
  13. andrewlt

    andrewlt Prince

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    Funny, those are some of the features I disliked the most. Religion messed up diplomacy. I hate the AI being in constant peace with other. Espionage was a gimmick and I didn't like how they implemented corporations.
     
  14. dexters

    dexters Gods & Emperors Supporter

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    ^Religion is a crutch for human players to. It becomes a 'safe' thing to do never to find your own religion on the higher settings ans simply go along with the flow of whover is most powerful. Oh, Isabella is Buddhist, switch and join her in wars of opportunity. Do the same every damn game. That's not diplomatic variety, its a playbook with a single play.


    In anycase, Civ AI has always been opportunistic, this game is no different. But I want to point out the AI does evaluate its situation. The same game where Sulieman wiped the floor with everyone, Oda Nobunaga was doing OCC on the side and joined in soon after Suleiman DOW.

    In my current game, they became friendly after I beat them down and we now have a signed pact of co-operaiton. The difference? They're alone on the northern tip of the continent. And I left a garrison closeby.

    It takes some learning but AI rarely goes from co-operating to war. Relations deteriorate, they will cancel their pacts first before they DOW. And the voice acting changes from friendly to hostile. You can sense in the tone and the animations.

    The salient point is, you need to call up your AI neighbours to poll them on things you are about to do. Want to invade jAPAN? sign a secret pact with the Indians to the south. Maybe have them join in too.

    The go it alone, will buy off AI with gifts attitude no longer work in the same way. In that your gifts do affect relations but they do not consider an existing lux for lux deal to be beneficial as the AI is quite good at managing its happiness.

    Now, I do think the game do need to have truly friendly state where they come and tell you 'we are your allies'. That's probably what is bugged at the moment.

    Also, I've never experienced a situation where the AI is 'automatically hostile' to me with no apparent reason. They become so if you expand in their direction or befriend and or buyout one of the allied CS (ie: if two civs have ally status on a CS, the one with the higher points win out-- I know this because it happened to me for the first time tonight).

    I've never had an issue where we just never get along. And if that's the case, you probably got unlucky and drew a starting position too close to the AI. Guess what, go to war with them first. Why try to befriend them. Silly.
     
  15. Misterboy

    Misterboy Modern Major General

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    Because when you develop a game (or anything) where you drastically change major components, in an attempt to make it fresh, you can't expect it to be as polished or complete as a game that has been in development 5 times as long. You sound very ignorant to me. There is a fantasy world where you can have your cake and eat it to. Then there's the real world where real people have to do real things. I for one directly compare it to BTS, and I prefer Civ 5. Balance issues are another matter, and will be fixed.

    Pot calling the kettle black. What would you do. You'd found a city because you want that land/resource. Then, if the AI was too close you'd use the tools available to you... you'd ask him not to settle near you, and if you are too pressed for space, you'd declare war and get some breathing room. Oh NO! I'm sorry you can't handle an AI that acts like a human. Perhaps you'd be happier manipulating the naive AI of Civ 4? So sweat off my back.

    Your second example. If *I* saw an enemy Civ moving a lot of troops near my border, I would have to assume it was a prelude to war. You'll have to forgive the game for not magically knowing your intentions and that you mean no threat. Again, if you want to be able to mass a huge army near enemy borders, then declare war while the AI is totally surprised, then go back to Civ 4. Have fun. I like that I have to treat the AI like a human player and not treat him like a lamb.
     
  16. Misterboy

    Misterboy Modern Major General

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    I guess I'm playing a different game. I keep seeing people say this stuff. The AI is always hostile etc. I just don't see that. I *have* seen that. But not always, in fact, not terribly often. My guess is that the vast majority of people like you are doing things to make them hostile in some way. I don't know. All I know is what I've seen. I'm currently playing Bismark and not a single AI has gone hostile towards me except Catherine, and that was after I went out of my way to grab some land near her and bought territory to grab a resource near her border. She reacted rationally. The others? I've played nice with them, traded when I could. Asked for pacts of cooperation and secrecy and have gotten them many times, but not all. The more I treat the AI like a human, the more rational it reacts.

    STOP trying to game the AI, and then get mad when it doesn't like it. Also realize that the game is random. It changes. I've seen all sorts of varying behavior.
     
  17. Penwa

    Penwa Warlord

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    Like the person said above my little box (actually it was Caius Marcius). We judge the game based on the current state of the art, which in this case includes BTS.

    Civ 5 is much better than Civ 4 IMO, however, we can play BTS, ergo, civ 5 is not as good as the current state of the art. I therefore, now find BTS keeping my attention much longer than Civ 5.
     
  18. Rellin

    Rellin Norrathian Gnome

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    I like Civ5 more than Civ4 as well. I never got into Civ4. I loved Civ3, but not 4. Having good time with Civ5 right now, but tbh, I am getting really pissed that there have been no gameplay patches yet.
     
  19. Misterboy

    Misterboy Modern Major General

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    I've since (in subsequent posts) stated that I prefer Civ 5 to Civ 4, BTS. To me, Jon Shafer read my mind, took out all the crap that didn't work well in Civ 4, and added in some features I've wanted for years. Call me crazy, but am enjoying Civ 5 more than BTS, and Civ 5 is only going to get better. :D
     
  20. Bill Bisco

    Bill Bisco Callous Calling

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    You can buy Civ4 Complete off the shelf or Civ5 off the shelf. We're expected to play Civ5 in leiu of Civ4 yet Civ5 has far less content.
     

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