I like that religion is way simpler in Seven, although it is tedious

[gamemaster3000]

In Civ 5 and Civ 6 I almost completely ignored religion. Faith was hard to get, the amount of faith it took to convert large cities was a real problem in competitive games, the computer got tons of free missionaries, and beakers and culture were nearly always better. Religious combat also slowed the game down, and a game of Civ takes plenty long as is. Also if I had nearby neighbors, if I even managed to get a religion it would frequently be converted by the computer player's endless cheating with free units.

And when you did convert a neighbor's city, they almost inevitably got incredibly pissed about it. In short, faith was: difficult to acquire, complicated and tedious to use, and despite all this, easily overpowered by the computer players.

Civ 7 is a lot simpler, which I like. Everyone gets a religion. Missionaries you can build with hammers. As long as you have a temple, you can build missionaries of your own religion even if the city is currently a different one. Missionaries can't be stopped, use them (and merchants) to scout the map, then go two at a time to a city and press one button on a rural tile and the same button on an urban tile, voila, city converted. No diplomatic consequences. Yes please.

I'm not saying that it's the greatest mechanic that ever existed, especially since...has any religion ever cared if their followers were at home or in distant lands...but at least it's simple.

It is kind of tedious to move all these missionaries around, which again slows the game down. But at least I have a chance. And it gives my megacities something useful to build during peacetime when I'm already well-defended and at the settlement cap.

TL;DR: It's not the greatest system but at least it's simple and usable.

 

[Gori the Grey]

has any religion ever cared if their followers were at home or in distant lands

The Catholic Church has the aim of evangelizing the entire globe.

I think it's the model for religion in the Civ games.

 

[MutilationWave]

The Catholic Church has the aim of evangelizing the entire globe.

I think it's the model for religion in the Civ games.

I'm trying to think of a religion that doesn't or didn't care where the followers lived. I'm coming up with nothing. Maybe Taoism or Deism but I'm not sure Deism even counts as a religion.

 

[gamemaster3000]

I was thinking of this at work, and possibly the Mormons would rather have fewer converts but in their area as opposed to more converts anywhere, if for some reason they were given a choice

 

[Chefofrats]

In Civ 5 and Civ 6 I almost completely ignored religion.

I find myself ignoring religion in 7. Mostly, anyway.

In 6 faith economy was a thing: I relied on faith for settlers, workers and my army. In 7 I can get some benefits from faith, sure, via beliefs and policy cards, but it's just too tedious to spread religion and maintain it. The fact there is no penalty for converting another player's settlements is to blame, probably. Is there a less fun mechanic than one that forces you to buy missionary after missionary to reconvert the cities the AI continues to convert, time after time after time? It's so brainless, so mindbogglingly repetitive. The fact you can't protect yourself in any way from conversion is just wrong. "Missionary spam" is *not* a worthy game system.

All I care about is converting my own settlements in distant lands, for the "cultural" victory path.

 

[UWHabs]

I just finished an exploration age where I went aggressive at converting. Partly because they're cheap relics, partly just to see if I could. I ended up getting like 95% conversion - the last 10-20 turns just always was a random city somewhere that converted. I'm sure I could have been more efficient, since between bonuses, the religious emergency going on, and all my bonuses, I could buy a 7 charge missionary for 275 gold.

But... it basically means nothing. I mean, sure, I think I was pulling in some good gold for my first bonus. But when it came around to the next enhancer belief, I didn't know what to pick so I think I grabbed the 1 science per grassland tile, and that was worth like 12 science despite having the whole planet basically under my control. Sure I easily got a ton of relics, but I feel like there's better ways that religion could work.

So yeah, I mean, I like that it's sort of low risk overall - converting opponents didn't cause the global war like it has in other games. But it's also pretty under-whelming, and there's a tedium to basically scanning around the map to find which cities need conversion. And you can just easily lose a city to be converted away without being able to do anything, other than just convert it back next turn.

I still feel like getting rid of missionary units completely, and somehow putting religion as something you spend influence on to spread just makes more sense. Don't give me more units to walk around the map, especially immortal units that can't be defeated. Just give me one big menu page to decide which cities I am exerting religious pressure to, and find an algorithm for passive and active spread in converting cities.

 

[Tanel]

I like that there isn't religious combat and victory anymore but the missionary spam is still kinda boring. I'd rather prefer a system with a more passive spread.

 

[MutilationWave]

I just finished an exploration age where I went aggressive at converting. Partly because they're cheap relics, partly just to see if I could. I ended up getting like 95% conversion - the last 10-20 turns just always was a random city somewhere that converted. I'm sure I could have been more efficient, since between bonuses, the religious emergency going on, and all my bonuses, I could buy a 7 charge missionary for 275 gold.

But... it basically means nothing. I mean, sure, I think I was pulling in some good gold for my first bonus. But when it came around to the next enhancer belief, I didn't know what to pick so I think I grabbed the 1 science per grassland tile, and that was worth like 12 science despite having the whole planet basically under my control. Sure I easily got a ton of relics, but I feel like there's better ways that religion could work.

So yeah, I mean, I like that it's sort of low risk overall - converting opponents didn't cause the global war like it has in other games. But it's also pretty under-whelming, and there's a tedium to basically scanning around the map to find which cities need conversion. And you can just easily lose a city to be converted away without being able to do anything, other than just convert it back next turn.

I still feel like getting rid of missionary units completely, and somehow putting religion as something you spend influence on to spread just makes more sense. Don't give me more units to walk around the map, especially immortal units that can't be defeated. Just give me one big menu page to decide which cities I am exerting religious pressure to, and find an algorithm for passive and active spread in converting cities.

Hat's off to you for making that effort. I couldn't stand to try it. Agreed on the influence menu, it would definitely be an upgrade.

 

[Krikkit1]

The way I would revise it
Keep the missionaries they stay required for the actual conversions ….But

1. They (and all other unattackable units) are expelled back to your capital if they are in enemy territory and adjacent to an enemy military unit and not adjacent to a friendly unit

2. To convert, using their charges takes influence

The amount of Influence needed for conversion depends on the “Pressures” of different religions in the settlement…which slowly builds up based on nearby religious building/wonders, the religion present, policies, etc.

If you don’t have enough influence to convert with the charge, you can use the charge to put more pressure on

Then you would get Relics not by converting certain settlements, but by keeping them converted.
ie 10 turns 1 relic
20 more turns 1 more relic
40 more turns 1 more relic

 

[UWHabs]

The way I would revise it
Keep the missionaries they stay required for the actual conversions ….But

1. They (and all other unattackable units) are expelled back to your capital if they are in enemy territory and adjacent to an enemy military unit and not adjacent to a friendly unit

2. To convert, using their charges takes influence

The amount of Influence needed for conversion depends on the “Pressures” of different religions in the settlement…which slowly builds up based on nearby religious building/wonders, the religion present, policies, etc.

If you don’t have enough influence to convert with the charge, you can use the charge to put more pressure on

Then you would get Relics not by converting certain settlements, but by keeping them converted.
ie 10 turns 1 relic
20 more turns 1 more relic
40 more turns 1 more relic

I think it would be a little confusing to use both charges and influence, but yeah, I don't necessarily hate that idea. I'm sure with a little balance, there's something that could work. Even potentially something like each charge taking a fixed influence amount, but the pressure needed to convert a citizen goes up. I like the simplicity of the Urban/Rural, but I miss some of the balance when you have competing religions that your charge just isn't as powerful.

I don't hate the current setup of getting relics immediately on flipping, but I think for VP concerns, it should be based on converting and keeping them converted, like you suggested. So you can get your relics however you want, but to win the culture path, you need to keep the pressure on. Or maybe a combination - you get 1 point towards the path per relic you have, but you get a bonus point at those 10/20/40 turn increments for keeping a city converted. And then maybe it's 50 points or something you need total to win. So you need both the relics and relic slots, but you also need like 10+ cities to be converted and stay at your religion for a length of time fully complete the path too.
*edit: I guess you could do it where you get a free relic at those 10/20/40 turn levels, and then have some other mechanism to make sure you get enough relic slots to fit them in. Maybe you have a few extra spots in the culture tree to open up slots to display your relics, and then you can still have the legacy based on "total relics".

 

[Oberinspektor Derrick]

In Civ 5 and Civ 6 I almost completely ignored religion. Faith was hard to get, the amount of faith it took to convert large cities was a real problem in competitive games, the computer got tons of free missionaries, and beakers and culture were nearly always better. Religious combat also slowed the game down, and a game of Civ takes plenty long as is. Also if I had nearby neighbors, if I even managed to get a religion it would frequently be converted by the computer player's endless cheating with free units.

No offense, but this is a skill issue, as stopping the AI from converting in civ 6 is a non-issue if you approach it the right way.

I personally dont see the point of having religions in civ 7 as it stands, as its a horsehockey gimmick-fest and nothing else.
Its part of an absolutely trash system (victory conditions) that needs to be scrapped completely and overhauled from the bottom up.

 

[gamemaster3000]

I just finished an exploration age where I went aggressive at converting. I ended up getting like 95% conversion

But... it basically means nothing.

I'd argue that this is a Civ 6 mentality that you haven't updated yet. In Civ 6 converting the entire world would come with massive rewards...you pursued 95% conversion in search of that.

But in Civ 7, there's no need to do this.

 

[CliffCo]

While i never played Civ6 on deity or tried to win in the fewest possible turns I always played with religous victories turned off, I used faith but didn't like religion, or religous victories, i feel the same way about religion and faith in Civ7 and am happy they replaced religous victories with economic.

 

[Oberinspektor Derrick]

I'd argue that this is a Civ 6 mentality that you haven't updated yet. In Civ 6 converting the entire world would come with massive rewards...you pursued 95% conversion in search of that.

But in Civ 7, there's no need to do this.

Its not massively rewarding though, because trying to do that (disregarding religious victory where its mandatory to mass convert) will drain your faith economy dry, in exchange for what will end up being minor yield buffs in the grand scheme of things.
Its much better (return of investment wise) to use that faith economy for civilian units (monumentality), military units (GMC), GPPs and if playing CV, naturalists and rock bands.

 

[Krikkit1]

I think it would be a little confusing to use both charges and influence, but yeah, I don't necessarily hate that idea. I'm sure with a little balance, there's something that could work. Even potentially something like each charge taking a fixed influence amount, but the pressure needed to convert a citizen goes up. I like the simplicity of the Urban/Rural, but I miss some of the balance when you have competing religions that your charge just isn't as powerful.

I don't hate the current setup of getting relics immediately on flipping, but I think for VP concerns, it should be based on converting and keeping them converted, like you suggested. So you can get your relics however you want, but to win the culture path, you need to keep the pressure on. Or maybe a combination - you get 1 point towards the path per relic you have, but you get a bonus point at those 10/20/40 turn increments for keeping a city converted. And then maybe it's 50 points or something you need total to win. So you need both the relics and relic slots, but you also need like 10+ cities to be converted and stay at your religion for a length of time fully complete the path too.
*edit: I guess you could do it where you get a free relic at those 10/20/40 turn levels, and then have some other mechanism to make sure you get enough relic slots to fit them in. Maybe you have a few extra spots in the culture tree to open up slots to display your relics, and then you can still have the legacy based on "total relics".

They definitely have room in the culture tree for religious civics.. perhaps Theology II is created and provides Policies with an extra +2 Slots in City Temples, +1 on all Temples or +7 on the Palace and +2 on Wonders
and that 10/20/40 would probably only apply to settlements of the "right type" capitals/Distant lands/ terrain, etc. I do like that part of the Reliquary.. you have certain "Targets"

 

[UWHabs]

I'd argue that this is a Civ 6 mentality that you haven't updated yet. In Civ 6 converting the entire world would come with massive rewards...you pursued 95% conversion in search of that.

But in Civ 7, there's no need to do this.

I wasn't necessarily doing it to pursue any grand vision of things. Mostly I was curious about unlocking those extra policies to see how they might work, and once you get started down the path, it's more to see if I could. I never got the last belief, sadly. I think that needs a quest for it.

They definitely have room in the culture tree for religious civics.. perhaps Theology II is created and provides Policies with an extra +2 Slots in City Temples, +1 on all Temples or +7 on the Palace and +2 on Wonders
and that 10/20/40 would probably only apply to settlements of the "right type" capitals/Distant lands/ terrain, etc. I do like that part of the Reliquary.. you have certain "Targets"

Yeah, again, depending on your goals or balance with the changes, there's always a way to figure out how to make sure you have enough slots available, without making it too trivial in other ways. Whether the bonus relics come from the targets, or generally as well, that's another balance feature too to think about. Although I would argue now the "targets" are a little too broad. Or at least, I just always take the "one for each settlement in distant lands" which covers basically everything. Maybe that one needs tightening up - could change to only count island settlements, or maybe it should ignore island settlements, etc..

 

[stealth_nsk]

They definitely have room in the culture tree for religious civics.. perhaps Theology II is created and provides Policies with an extra +2 Slots in City Temples, +1 on all Temples or +7 on the Palace and +2 on Wonders
and that 10/20/40 would probably only apply to settlements of the "right type" capitals/Distant lands/ terrain, etc. I do like that part of the Reliquary.. you have certain "Targets"

It all goes to the question - what the game needs the religion to be. Civ7 has a pretty clear view of the goals of religion as a system. You have 2 modes - minimal to fill culture path and maximum to spread your religion and carry over some benefits to the next age. First mode generally works well (although it's not that much about culture), the second may require some tweaks, including those from potential additional civics:

• Additional belief unlock conditions should be stated in a clear way and potentially made easier with additional culture input
• Some policies to make conversion easier, like maybe turning both urban and rural population as a single action (this one should have drawbacks)
• Maybe even some defensive policies, requiring foreign missionaries to spend additional charges

Something like this would be very welcome

 

[Unmitigated Gaul]

It all goes to the question - what the game needs the religion to be. Civ7 has a pretty clear view of the goals of religion as a system. You have 2 modes - minimal to fill culture path and maximum to spread your religion and carry over some benefits to the next age. First mode generally works well (although it's not that much about culture), the second may require some tweaks, including those from potential additional civics:

• Additional belief unlock conditions should be stated in a clear way and potentially made easier with additional culture input
• Some policies to make conversion easier, like maybe turning both urban and rural population as a single action (this one should have drawbacks)
• Maybe even some defensive policies, requiring foreign missionaries to spend additional charges

Something like this would be very welcome

I agree with your critique- the first is just basically “are you interacting with other players and moving the game forward, if so you get points”. I think it is a little on easy side depending on how you choose to play. Sort of reminds me of the economic system in antiquity.

Second mode has potential but it is unclear what your objectives are to get extra beliefs and so that’s not been a fun mechanic for me. I think being able to unlock a religious building or tile improvement with enough investment would be fun. More cards that give bonuses around religious play could also be a lot of fun.

 

[reddishrecue]

Well actually, you do get negatives if you let your religion get wiped out. I believe this is why you said the civilization 7 was more tedious in religion this way. I recall needing physicians in one of my religions once where I didn't allow my religion to survive. My civilization needed physicians because my own religion made people sick. It got too late to re-spread it back since I didn't really focus on keeping the religion on my shrine and my local cities, but the AI did. By the end I forgot the religion and didn't even spread it because I didn't want to build the physicians along with the missionaries because of the extra production costs.

 

[MACKA0ili]

I like how religion is simpler and you can build missionaries with hammers, but I really miss the religious pressure system and faith currency.
I like the idea of using influence to promote religions though. I think a good compromise would be to make missionaries work like traders establishing pilgrimage routes that would establish city connections.