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I LOVE the New Warmonger System! (Tips for BNW)

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by Halcyan2, Aug 21, 2013.

  1. Halcyan2

    Halcyan2 Chieftain

    May 12, 2012
    I keep reading post after post of players complaining about the new Warmonger system for BNW.

    I, for one, LOVE the new system! :D

    For the most part, I feel that people are relying too much on old strategies that worked in Vanilla and G&K, but which are ineffective in the new BNW paradigm. Yes, you do have to adapt to the new mechanisms!

    I might eventually make this into a formal guide, but for now, here are some brief tips:

    1. The old system of "let the AI DoW you and then take all their cities but one" doesn't work so well.

    Diplomatically, it is still better if the AI starts the war but the penalty for doing the DoW yourself is actually less in BNW. HOWEVER, you add to your warmonger penalty with every city you take, so you have to be more careful now.

    2. Liberate, liberate, liberate!

    I used to enjoy liberate civs (and recalling them to life) in G&K, but it's become even more helpful and powerful in BNW since it helps remove the Warmonger penalty.

    Between the decreased penalty for actually DoW'ing and the benefits for liberating, I am finding that I can warmonger *even more* than in Vanilla and G&K.

    3. Be selective about the cities you take

    Capturing each city comes with a penalty, so you don't want to take every one (especially the ones you would simply raze).

    Here are some sample strategies that allow you to warmonger with minimal diplomatic penalties:

    A. Selective sniping

    For pure Domination efficiency, you can just focus on capturing each AI's capital and let them keep the rest of their cities. You will still suffer a "You captured our capital" penalty with that particular civ, but since you are only taking one city, the global Warmonger penalty should be much less.

    This can sometimes be harder if the AI has other cities in the way that block you from their capital. Take those if necessary, but try to keep the city conquesting to a minimum.

    B. Conquest through Peace Deals

    If you want a large expansive empire with lots of puppets, that is also possible in BNW. The key thing is that you DO NOT want to take those puppets through conquest, since each city conquest comes with a warmonger penalty.

    What you want to do is get in a war with someone, obliterate their army and defeat them soundly, and then get them to give you their cities in a peace deal, since cities you puppet/annex through a peace deal apparently don't add to your warmonger score.

    C. Plundering Great Works

    Cultural games may also benefit from a Domination strategy since you can capture Great Works, or you can handicap rival civs to decrease their cultural output.

    It can be tricky to capture great works before the Renaissance (things become A LOT easier once you have spies).

    Generally, the majority of great works will be held in the capital. Before Industrial (Museums), Great Works of Art will normally be held only in the Palace slot in the capital (with the exception of Cathedral religions and wonders like the Parthenon, Sistine Chapel, and Uffizi). Great Works of Writing are a bit trickier. Sometimes the AI will build lots of amphitheaters, so it will be hard to capture the Great Work since it keeps getting moved around. Other times, the only writing slots will all be in the capital. Besides amphitheaters, Great Works of Writing are usually centered in the capital due to National and/or Heroic Epic, as well as Oxford.

    If you want to capture lots of Great Works, your best bets are to either capture the capital (which should net you most of the great works) or if there are several satellite cities, just take them all in a peace deal. If you know the AI has a Great Work stashed in a crappy city, take the city in a peace deal.

    D. The liberation game

    This is my personal favorite. You can do immense amounts of conquest with minimal diplomatic penalties as long as you remember to liberally liberate. This goes a LONG way towards reducing the warmonger penalty.

    I often like to manipulate the AI's into fighting each other so that when I do eventually attack, I can liberate a few cities.

    It also makes the game much more interesting. In Vanilla and G&K, it was common to pick on the weaker civs. With the new BNW system, you're actually better off squaring off against runaways and warmongers, which makes things a lot more interesting.

    Another thing I do is keep a temporary "portfolio" of puppet cities that I take, which I eventually give away so that I can retake them and liberate them.
  2. Halcyan2

    Halcyan2 Chieftain

    May 12, 2012
    Anecdote: Here's an example of a recent game I've been playing. Huge Pangaea on Emperor with 13 AI's and 24 city states. I am Byzantium, opponents are Morocco, Songhai, Germany, Carthage, Sweden, Denmark, Polynesia, Mongolia, Portugal, Aztecs, France, Zulus, and the Netherlands (I prefer civs that don't like wonders!).

    In the early game, I have DoF's with Morocco, Portugal, and Polynesia.

    Early on, the Aztecs declare on Morocco and wipe them out, taking all of their cities. I DoW them (slight warmonger penalty visible with most civs). I take Marrakesh and keep it (works out since Morocco had a competing religion and now they will never be able to enhance). Warmonger penalty increases with most civs. I then liberate their two remaining civs (which recalls Ahmad to life). In peace negotiations, the Aztecs are willing to offer me one of their 3 cities, but I just take all their gold instead. (I don't want to deal with the science penalty, the unhappiness, and most importantly I want the Aztecs to remain strong so they can beat up other civs later on). So in the end, I got to DoW the Aztecs and puppet Marrakesh, but due to liberation/recalling to life, I had no warmonger penalty visible. And since I didn't take any Aztec cities, I was even on Friendly terms with Montezuma, after we agreed to peace.

    After the war with the Aztecs, I make friends with Sweden, Germany, France, Mongolia, and Carthage.

    Next target is Germany. They are doing pretty well and have a number of Great Works that I am eyeing (3 Writing and 1 Art). I instigate some wars, getting them to attack Sweden (taking one city) and several wars against the Netherlands (taking two cities). I let my DoF lapse and then DoW Germany. I take Berlin netting 2 Great Works but they keep moving the other 2 around. I have to take another 3 German cities before I manage to get their remaining 2 Great Works. In the meantime, I liberate the Swedish city and both of the Dutch cities, to eliminate any warmonger penalties. I bombard Frankfurt to 0 health, and then accept peace, taking Germany's remaining 2 cities (crappy ones that I temporarily puppet with the intention of giving/liberating later on), right before the Dutch are able to eliminate Bismarck by taking the 0 health city. So I gained 6 Germany cities (including capital) and 4 Great Works, but I am fine diplomatically because I liberated 1 Swedish and 2 Dutch cities.

    However, I don't really want the Germany cities (other than Berlin), so I sell 2 to the Zulus and give 3 to the French. France is now my next target since Napoleon now has 4 Great Works. After the DoF lapses, I quickly take out Paris and Orleans for the 4 Great Works. I liberate a German city to recall Bismarck to life. Despite the fact that I had taken his original capital, the "You restored our civilization when we were annihilated" positive is so strong that he wants to be my Friend (but I decline the DoW since everyone hates him and there's too much diplomatic baggage). The Zulus sense Napoleon's weakness and also DoW. I bring Lyon down to half health, and then accept peace with Napoleon, taking his remaining cities (liberate 2 German cities, take a crappy city as a temporary puppet). Shaka then takes Lyon, which eliminates Napoleon. He starts razing Lyon, but I pay a ridiculous amount of GPT to get it as a temporary puppet.

    At this point in the game, I have Marrakesh (conquered from the Aztecs), Berlin (war I started) and Paris (war I started) and Lyon (bought from conquering Zulus). Yet I have DoF's with 7 civs and Friendly terms with most of the rest (everyone except Songhai and Zulus).

    As for the rest of the world, the Aztecs take out all 4 Mongolian cities (eliminating Genghis) and take out Ahmad again (taking 3 Moroccan cities, 2 of which I had previously liberated). This also nets Montezuma several Great Works. Carthage takes Copenhagen and all but one of the Danish cities. And Zulus take all but one of the Swedish cities. In Vanilla and G&K games, I might be annoyed or worried. In BNW, these are prime opportunities because I know I can later DoW these civs with very little diplomatic penalties as long as I liberate several cities.

    Next up is Shaka. I sell him my crappy French city that I had been holding. I take out Ulundi and 4 other Zulu cities, in order to take all his 2 Writings and 2 Artworks (he had some Cathedrals since I spread my religion to him), along with 3 Great Works he plundered from Sweden. To balance this out, I liberate and recall to life the crappy French city, liberate the 2 German cities, and liberate 2 Swedish cities. I keep Stockholm (conquered from the Zulus), Munich (has a cathedral), and Sigtuna (had a Great Work so I need to puppet first, but will give away later). I keep Ulundi but sell all of the other Zulu cities to Portugal and Carthage. Since the Zulus (and I) took out most of the civs in the area, there aren't many good options to get someone else to deliver the coup de grace. But I bombard the last Zulu city to 0 health and gift a unit to La Venta, letting the city state finish off Shaka.

    I keep instigating wars. I get Montezuma to attack Songhai and he takes all but one city (including Gao), though the AI is bad with battle and I need to gift him a unit to take a key city. Also I get Portugal to attack Polynesia, and Maria eventually takes all of their cities (including Honolulu).

    Once Montezuma has captured all of Songhai's Great Works, it is now time to harvest the Aztec crop I have been cultivating. I buy 2 Songhai cities that Montezuma is razing, and liberate them to Songhai and I even manage to buy a small (2 population) Aztec city which happened to have a great work in it! I quickly take out the remaining "Aztec" cities which nets me 8 Aztec Great Works (3 writing, 3 art, 2 music), along with the 2 Songhai and 1 Mongolian pieces. I liberate (recall to life) Ahmad again with his 3 cities, Genghis with his 3 cities, and liberate another Songhai city. I keep Gao and Karakorum for myself.

    Right now the Aztecs are down to a single city (with 0 health), that I am hoping that Zurich or Songhai will finish off. My remaining targets are the Netherlands (3 great works), Portugal (8 of their own great works plus 3 Polynesian ones) which controls Honolulu, and Carthage (1 of their own great works, plus 2 Danish ones) which controls Copenhagen.

    I control Berlin, Paris, Ulundi, and Tenochtitlan which I captured from their owners, along with Marrakesh, Stockholm, Karakorum, and Gao which I got secondhand. Yet I have DoF's, with Germany, France, Morocco, Sweden, Mongolia, Songhai, and also Denmark. (Had one with Polynesia when they were eliminated). Finally, Carthage, the Netherlands, and Portugal are all willing to DoF with me, but I keep declining so that I have the option to attack them.

    Hopefully this anecdote illustrates how you can still warmonger to your heart's content (and in fact, even better than in G&K) while still carefully maintaining your diplomatic relations.
  3. Theruss

    Theruss Chieftain

    Dec 18, 2010
    Good tips, fellow Civer.

    I as well like the change in the warmongering system. I find totally crushing an AI's army will net you some of their cities in a peace deal. Also, when another Civ asks you to join their war. Assuming it's not someone you have DOF, do it! If your military is powerful, sometimes you don't even need to help your ally. You can be offered a free city in the peace deal even if you didn't do anything!

    Although I do enjoy helping my ally, not take the cities, might hit it a few times to help the ally. But I like to do the pillaging while my ally takes the city. Lancers are the best pillagers.
  4. Davor

    Davor Chieftain

    May 18, 2003
    How do you Liberate a City? I don't get it? Someone captured a City State. I then captured that City State. I thought I could free it, but didn't have the option to do so.

    So how does this work exactly? I don't get it.
  5. Seabastian Civ

    Seabastian Civ Chieftain

    Sep 10, 2012
    Liked the article, but how can I avoid getting sniped in the rear as I push in towards the capital?

    For example, you take Barcelona, which is the closest city to your country, down to 0 health and move on towards the capital, Madrid, which is towards the interior of their country. Barcelona, that 0 health city, will still snipe your units as they move by. How can you rotate frontline troops when the area they rotate to would be in the line of fire of this city? Worse yet, what if the AI puts planes or nukes in that city?
  6. Kintara

    Kintara Chieftain

    Jul 3, 2013
    Kailua, HI
    Well, remember that Austria and Venice incorporate city states completely when they use their special abilities. You can't liberate them back into city states. Also, anyone can be gifted Merchants of "Venice" by city states if you have Patronage. If you literally saw it get conquered as a city state and then conquered it yourself, you should have had the option to liberate when you first took it.
  7. Vidszhite

    Vidszhite Chieftain

    Jun 21, 2012
    You can only liberate a city-state that still has a City-State icon in its name plate. Austria's UA does definitely remove CS status, as does Venice's.
  8. rodrigoq

    rodrigoq Chieftain

    Nov 13, 2005
    I enjoy manipulating the AI in a similar manner. I plauy diety games, but the strategies are basically the same. Every map I play ends with me killing everyone anyway... 30 turns from culture/sci/space win? Please, speak to my army.. Thought I prefer to sacrifice my tech and beeling artillery/dynamite then proceed to blow everyone up before they get riflemen, ensuring I can have any victory I want.
  9. Bibor

    Bibor Doomsday Machine

    Jun 6, 2004
    Zagreb, Croatia
    If you have dynamite before they have riflemen, you're definitely not playing on deity :)
  10. Darkmatterx76

    Darkmatterx76 Chieftain

    Jan 8, 2006
    I'm playing a game right now where I got the Warmonger tag 1 turn after DOW. At that point I hadn't even attacked a city yet, let alone take it. BTW I was not friends with the civ I attacked and didn't have any deals with them at the time. Also they never asked me why I had troops at their borders.
  11. djcollin

    djcollin Chieftain

    Apr 22, 2009
    Excellent ideas!
  12. sonicandfffan

    sonicandfffan Chieftain

    Feb 21, 2013
    England, UK

    It's perfectly possible if you beeline dynamite and focus on science. Most people catch up with AI tech by Renaissance anyway, if you're beelining Dynamite it's perfectly possible to have it before the AI completes the tech tree up to riflemen (remember that the AI isn't beelining riflemen).
  13. ezbutton

    ezbutton Chieftain

    Nov 19, 2011
    My problem with warmongering is the science. I'm playing emperor and I managed to build GL and transition into an early NC <75ish turn. I continue to roll over civs as the Zulus leveraging my impis all the way to industrial. I'm able to manage a decent tech lead till early renaissance but when it gets to the latter portion of the era I start dropping like a stone. From 1st I drop down to 4th (5th and 6th are civs left with one city after I DOW and 7th and 8th have been eliminated) and I'm losing it bad. I remain positive happiness thanks to religion so I still manage to have the 2nd largest population. So I have a few questions since I figure I should be this behind in emperor and I must be micromanaging poorly.

    Do I have to start razing cities to get the science up? If I do I think my gold will go negative again and doesn't that impede my science still? Also I've began to run wealth in my production slot over a few turns and rotate between cities so I can manage the upkeep between army and buildings and I'm not certain if I should keep this up or switch it to science. Seems like wide games are alot harder to manage in BNW than G&K and I feel my strategies probably suck so enlighten me please.
  14. rodrigoq

    rodrigoq Chieftain

    Nov 13, 2005
    I had artillery by 800 AD if I remeber correctly. Focusing on sci and patronage will get you very high tech output. Especially if you spend as much gold as possible on allying CS's. I'll see if there is a save showing me getting artilley before anyone else. Also, the AI was 5 techs ahead of me, but they were going for culture, and had archeology, banking, economics, and everything else in the tree, except fertilizer and metulurgy. Whereas I, skipped alot of techs just to get an advantage, which has lead to the quick deaths of my 3 tech and culture rivals.

    It is a diety game. Diety isn't hard if it's all you've ever played since Civ 3. Think it was called something else maybe? Don't have an old CD to check. Might still have Civ 1 on a 3.5 inch floppy somwhere too. =)
  15. TheGrandWazoo

    TheGrandWazoo Chieftain

    Mar 4, 2013
    My memory is a little hazy, but I seem to remember a difficulty called "Sid". Can't remember if it was harder than Deity or not though!
  16. j51

    j51 Blue Star Cadet

    Oct 22, 2006
    Ping Island
    Yeah, I'm having the same issues with expansion and science. So frustrating.
  17. Teadrinker

    Teadrinker Chieftain

    Jun 8, 2011
    I think the problems with the BNW warmongering penalties are less related to conquest strategies, and more to do with the incongruity of getting DoWed and then ending up with the warmonger tag because you take out a couple of cities to disable the threat.
  18. steveg700

    steveg700 Chieftain

    Feb 9, 2012
    "I assure you I'm no warmonger. I was merely fighting a defensive war."

    "Well, you didn't just defeat their armies. You actually conquered their cities".

    "Oh, uh, yes that. I was merely, um...disabling the threat. Yes, that's it. A defensive conquest. All in the name of peace, you know.'

    "Yes, I'm sure the fact that those cities had some nice resources had nothing to do with it. Tell you what. Get out of my throne room."


    Just beat the enemy into submission and make them give you the cities.
  19. DutchJob

    DutchJob Chieftain

    Nov 5, 2006
    Great write up. Thanks OP!
  20. neilkaz

    neilkaz Chieftain

    Oct 1, 2010
    Chicago Suburbs
    Yes, this bothers me greatly as well, since you often need to take at least a couple cities to cripple the AI aggressor. I recall one of the emperor challanges that I played thru a few times. No matter what I did, Rome killed Dido and Sejong on our continent and came after me. The only way to get a consistant peace with Rome was to take 4 of their cities and slow down their production. One game where I was more passive, Rome DOW'd me 4 times!!

    .. neilkaz ..

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