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I made a video on why I think donut is the most balanced map

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by GodDamnItAlexander, Sep 28, 2017.

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  1. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Please stop all this. We're not going to change up our balancing model. Either get with the program and address balance concerns like everyone else around here does, or learn SQL/XML and make your own modmod.

    G
     
  2. GodDamnItAlexander

    GodDamnItAlexander Warlord

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    I went back to page 15 and followed Arabia throughout the change logs. You'll see that over time he gets weaker and weaker (how did I predict this before even seeing the change logs? Dumb luck?).
    I found two trends:
    1. Civs are buffed and nerfed according to an average performance.
    2. The average performance gets lower and lower each patch.

    This means that
    1) Civs that are the strongest will keep getting nerfed almost continuously (Arabia)

    2) Civs that are average will either:
    A. First not be touched and then eventually will start getting nerfed almost continuously (Songhai)
    B. Keep getting buffed and then start getting nerfed almost continuously (India)

    3) Civ that are weakest will get buffed/reworked until they hit the average, and then get nerfed continuously
    (Siam). I predict the same fate for the Netherlands, so watch out for him.

    Keep in mind these buffs and nerfs will take time. We don't get a new version every two days.

    Ok. I understand where this is going. I want a heroic yet tragic ending since I already put so much time into this, so here are my final words -
    "Remember my predictions. It takes zero friends to be right, and having friends doesn't make you right. Now cut off my head."
    Queue guillotine.:c5war::eek:
     
  3. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    I probably shouldn't say anything, but here goes: it is breathtaking that you think that just 7 pages of conversation qualifies you for martyrdom over 'putting so much time into this.' There are so, so many members of this community (myself included) that iterate, design, and discuss, and have been doing so for years. To step in and say we're all wrong and dumb, and to claim some kind of supreme martyrdom when there's a consensus against your views, is not a positive contribution to the community. So, I reiterate: adapt to the model established in the community and contribute like everyone else does.

    G
     
  4. bigcat88

    bigcat88 King

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    [offtop]
    "for years" ) I just looked how much I played and was very surprised:

    [/offtop]
     
  5. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    I'm only 600 hours ahead of you...and I leave my computer on for hours and hours and hours while I'm away just churning the AI into each other. :D

    G
     
  6. GodDamnItAlexander

    GodDamnItAlexander Warlord

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    Ok, I'm wrong and this entire thing was a huge work of modern art that demonstrates the power of a thick skull.
    Can you explain how you plan to balance the game on every map type while keeping a unique identity to every Civ?
     
  7. Blue Ghost

    Blue Ghost King

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    7 pages isn’t that huge.

    And exactly the way he’s been doing it for years, with roaring success.
     
    RAuer2 and vyyt like this.
  8. ashendashin

    ashendashin King

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    IDK man the game feels pretty balanced right now after several years of balancing with the current mindset and all these mechanics that were added along the way are cool.
     
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  9. Tekamthi

    Tekamthi Prince

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    Call me a soft-balancer, but can we nerf this OP thread with a lock debuff somehow? Gonna be a numerical donut of a contribution to VP from here out i think....
     
  10. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Filthy casual soft-balancer. ;)

    G
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2017
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  11. GodDamnItAlexander

    GodDamnItAlexander Warlord

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    Sorry I disrupted your circle jerk guys, I didn't mean to hurt anyone's emotions.
     
  12. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Is this your end game? Make it personal? I've now implored you twice to join the community and contribute to balance in the method we already use. If you don't want to do that, that's fine, but don't start down this path.

    G
     
  13. GodDamnItAlexander

    GodDamnItAlexander Warlord

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    No, this isn't my personal mission to hurt you or anyone else here.
    The end game is to have a logical discussion about game design philosophy. If you don't want to do that, or if you don't feel like talking to me anymore, that's fine. If you do however;
    Can you please explain how you plan to balance the game on every map type while keeping a unique identity to every Civ?
     
  14. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    You are making a ridiculous assumption: that all civs are supposed to be balanced for every map type. They're not - they have strengths and weaknesses, some more than others in different situations (and in different hands). That's called nuanced design. There are so, so many factors that go into balance beyond just civs, or policies, or even map scripts.

    Besides, the entire reason you are asking this question is to socratically lead us back to 'if you can't balance everything for every map, then...donut map forever.' It's not a good argument.

    G
     
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  15. Blue Ghost

    Blue Ghost King

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    We missed a good chance to close the discussion, guys. A consensus has already been reached, and clearly people are no longer debating on good faith. I see no point in continuing the discussion.
     
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  16. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    I agree, but I also want to make sure all are aware that I'm not shutting down balance discussions entirely, I'm simply trying to encourage constructive discussions within the existing balancing framework.

    G
     
  17. GodDamnItAlexander

    GodDamnItAlexander Warlord

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    It's impossible for you (or anyone else for that matter) to balance all Civs on all maps.

    You said all Civs have their strengths and weaknesses. Since you do not balance using only one map, and all Civs are unique from one another, that means that each and every Civ has one map type is which they are most effective (and one map in which they are least).

    This design means that you can't effectively compare (and balance) Civs, since each one has a different map type in which they play their best.

    With soft balancing each and every map type in the game will give an unfair advantage or disadvantage to all Civs, in particular to one Civ.
    With hard balancing it's the same, except there is one special map type that doesn't give any Civ either an advantage or disadvantage.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2017
  18. Paramecium

    Paramecium Prince

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    Sorry dude, but to ask the maker of the mod, which is called "Community Balance Patch", if he wants to balance its mod is kind of, how to put it, bold? You say the mod is not balanced. Okay, it is your opinion, but which Civ 5 mod is better balanced? At least you have to agree, that this mod is way better balanced than the Vanilla version of Civ 5 BNW?

    And please, if someone who played a lot of civ games and a lot of others say to you, that he/she has a different understanding of balancing which is not corresponding with your's (hard balancing = making every civ very special), just accept it, that it is a different definition and dont call them wrong (which you did multiple times in that thread, if you dont think so, drink a vodka and reread the thread ...).

    For balancing in general it is very important to have data. Gazebo said, he lets the AI play a lot against each other in different map types. Just try to calculate the number of possible match ups you just can have with the Civ 5 Vanilla standard map scripts. For an reasonable balancing, it would be good to use the exact same setting multiple times and then compare it to each other, if the results are similiar.

    And I have still the opinion, that Donut might be quite balanced if you would play a lot of PvP, but you couldnt give any real answers, why exactly do you think Polynesia would do well compared to other civs on Donut? And wouldnt a potential buff of them in Donut result in an even bigger one on any map which has more coast line and oceans and islands?
    And please, if you want to answer it, make it more specific, not just ....

    .... "Japan".
     
  19. RAuer2

    RAuer2 Chieftain

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    What seems impossible is for you to understand that your opinion about balance is not a fact that only you seem able to grasp and is, in the end, an opinion.

    A guy stands on a street corner wearing a sandwich board covered in scrawls warning of the end times. He shouts what he thinks are warnings of a coming apocalypse and wonders why nobody is listening. He doesn't understand that the people walking by were listening; they do not agree with him. That's you.

    You do not have to be that guy. You have been asked multiple times to contribute in a constructive manner. Your voice has value and your feedback is invited and welcome! Please take off the sandwich board and join the group trying to make VP more fun.

    If you feel that the better choice is to cling to the belief that you could have saved everyone here from a dreary fate if only we were all not too [insert adjective here] to listen, then Godspeed.

    And as for this...
    Blue Ghost stuck the landing.
     
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  20. GodDamnItAlexander

    GodDamnItAlexander Warlord

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    You can't balance the game for multiple maps while having multiple Civs. This is not an opinion, it's a fact. And so far that's what VP has been trying to do. See #137.
    I'll try to come up with a metaphor. Lets say every Civ is a different color. For the game to be balanced, we want all colors to be equally relevant* in our painting. Balancing using different map types is like always using a different canvas instead of the standard white one. Sometimes the canvas is orange, sometimes its blue, sometimes green and so on. What we find is that when the canvas is green, green colored Civs are hardly noticed (under-perform) and red colored Civs stand out (over-perform).
    Now add to the mix that each Civs color is not the straight forward green red blue, but also that each Civs color is a unique color that stands out above all others on a certain canvas color. For example orange stands out the most on yellow, even though we can also notice red.
    *relevant - not strong, not numerous, not big, not wide, not small, not faded or pronounced but relevant
    You want to make a science out of balancing, otherwise all that data is just data. Science ideally wants to know how one variable affects another. Basically we want to reduce the amount of variables. Using different map types does not achieve that effect.
    They can expand literally anywhere all the time no matter what. This doesn't mean just settling. So, so strong if a player knows what he's doing.
    Yes. But look at is this way. With soft balancing, buffing (Polynesia) would always make them stronger on maps with (coast lines,oceans and islands). With hard balancing it's the same, except there is one special map where they are already balanced with all the other Civs in the game.
    You could replace the parenthesis with other Civs and map types. For example:
    Yes. But look at it this way. With soft balancing, buffing (Zulu) would always make them stronger on maps with (lots of land and little ocean). With hard balancing it's the same, except there is one special map where they are already balanced with all the other Civs in the game.

    Look at what CrazyG said:
    "To date, we have just nerfed things which are OP on common map types, and buffed things which didn't do well on them."

    This proves that the game uses soft balancing. You can't have strong (fun) things using soft balancing, because things that are strong will be broken in certain map types. However things that are weak won't be broken in certain map types.
    The problem with constantly nerfing is that it strips Civs of their unique identity. Civs need to be absurdly strong in more than just one aspect, otherwise they aren't special. It also makes the game boring. We want to be fighting unique chess pieces that all fill a special irreplaceable role, not different kinds of pawns.

    Blue ghost didn't explain the reasoning behind what he said. It just looks like a sheep following his herder (no offense).
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2017
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