I must be the first to Theology... big disadvantage??

[neismond]

I am still relatively new to Civ4, having played about a dozen or so games. Going to be purchasing BtS in the next week or so. However, there is one thing that I simply must do each and every game, regardless of civilization/leader/difficulty level-

I must be the first one to Theology.

Having said that, I will typically allocate as much to science/research as I can, and follow the quickest and most direct path to Theology. Once I accomplish this, then I start to go back and get the other research items and such.

My question is this- I currently play at the easy level. For now, I am able to handle pretty much the majority of civilizations. However, I am a bit concerned about increasing the difficulty level while "handicapping" myself in this regard. Is this thought process going to be that much of a hinderance that it is going to prevent me from being successful at even moderate/average difficulty level?

I don't mind challenges; however, it would be nice to win a game every now and then. If I play 30 straight moderate difficulty level games and am blown out by 1000 AD because of this Theology situation, that is going to be extremely frustrating.

Anyone have any comments or thoughts? Or should I simply abandon the Theology requirement in order to be on par with my opponents and not get that far behind? Thanks all!

 

[Churchill's Hat]

...Christianity is that important to you? Honestly, I don't see why you're doing it, even at lower levels. The Sistine Chapel is good but there are better wonders, such as the Pyramids, that you can easily get on Settler/Chieftain/Warlord. As you move up in levels, AIs get more and more aggressive, and beelining to Theology while Montezuma/Shaka/Alexander/Tokugawa builds up an army is not the best idea. If you have protective and cultural, probably the two most defensive traits (large city defense bonuses and archers are really good in cities). If you really want theology, get the prerequisites and priesthood and build the oracle. Admittedly, that would be harder on later levels but its very easy on low difficulty. Code of Laws is better if you're looking for a classical/medieval religion. It comes with courthouses and the Forbidden Palace, which can really help for warmongers, and isn't bad if you're not a warmonger. I would recommend chasing that instead.

 

[Jet]

1. Play how you want.

> one thing that I simply must do each and every game, regardless of
> civilization/leader/difficulty level-
> I must be the first one to Theology.

Great!

2. > Having said that, I will typically allocate as much to science/research
> as I can, and follow the quickest and most direct path to Theology.
> Once I accomplish this, then I start to go back and get the other
> research items and such.

Sounds like you're probably being more aggressive than necessary to win your Theology beeline and might enjoy experimenting with different ways to get there. You'll have to give up some games if you miss it, but maybe you can live with that, and it will teach you when other civs will discover it on certain game settings.

A common tactic which I dare suggest you should always try to use is to get a Great Prophet to instantly discover ("lightbulb") Theology. You'll need to have researched Meditation first (as well as Monotheism and Writing, of course), otherwise the Prophet will want to lightbulb Meditation instead. You'll also need to get the Prophet by building Stonehenge, or The Oracle, or having a religion and building a Temple and running a Priest.

With the lightbulb, you should find that you have time to research the important meat and potatoes techs you need and still win Theology.

Depending on your personal style goals, I'd also suggest you set your empire up so that after getting Theology, you have a couple good production cities with Barracks that you can spread your religion to to build double-promoted units under Theocracy to attack someone with. Power-gaming wise, that's the best way to leverage it. And it can be very useful.

Edit: the Oracle suggestion in the previous post is a good one that I also think you'd enjoy experimenting with. Research Priesthood, build the Oracle while researching Monotheism and Writing, and take Theology as the free tech. You might find (this will vary with game settings and from game to game) that that's a good way to do it if you have Marble handy. By handy, I mean either within reach of your first city, or where you can put your second city either right on the Marble tile or right next to it. You might find you have to act fast to "hook up" the Marble with a Quarry and road in order to get it in time to help with the Oracle. But that will vary with game settings. Anyway as you increase the difficulty level it will start to get harder to research Monotheism and Writing before someone else builds the Oracle, but you're best off just experimenting with that as you increase the level.

 

[AThousandYoung]

Good thinking. Maybe he should use an SE and maybe a Philosophical leader.

 

[reclaimer122]

Honestly, I like founding Christianity also (kind of odd how I'm not religious at all ). I like the extra happiness and it's usually the only religion I can found without beelining. Usually I am able to get it without making any sort of research tactic, especially when I build the Oracle. Usually that works out perfectly to where I can just discover Theology with the Oracle when it's done. And then after I found it, I use my next great prophet to make the Christian Holy Building, and that gives me an unimaginable boost in cash Then I spread Christianity as much as I can between making units and buildings, increasing my advantage even more. It's a good strategy that I use often

 

[axident]

I am still relatively new to Civ4, having played about a dozen or so games. Going to be purchasing BtS in the next week or so. However, there is one thing that I simply must do each and every game, regardless of civilization/leader/difficulty level-

I must be the first one to Theology.

Having said that, I will typically allocate as much to science/research as I can, and follow the quickest and most direct path to Theology. Once I accomplish this, then I start to go back and get the other research items and such.

My question is this- I currently play at the easy level. For now, I am able to handle pretty much the majority of civilizations. However, I am a bit concerned about increasing the difficulty level while "handicapping" myself in this regard. Is this thought process going to be that much of a hinderance that it is going to prevent me from being successful at even moderate/average difficulty level?

I don't mind challenges; however, it would be nice to win a game every now and then. If I play 30 straight moderate difficulty level games and am blown out by 1000 AD because of this Theology situation, that is going to be extremely frustrating.

Anyone have any comments or thoughts? Or should I simply abandon the Theology requirement in order to be on par with my opponents and not get that far behind? Thanks all!

Hmm well I can tell you a strat that has produced, so far, a 85000 point game, and another game that I abandoned because it was obviously going to be a cakewalk as well. I didn't get Theo the first two times, but in my third try, which is my current game, Theo helped a lot. I'm on pace to break 117,000 score on Monarch/Standard/Normal.

Industrious/Creative Louis of France. 2 corn, but absolutely no other resources in my fat cross. I didn't care, 2 corn is killer, and one was even riverside. Poached a neighbor's worker, built a worker, choprushed and corn-rushed 2 settlers, then another later on after I built some warrior defense. Poached ANOTHER worker later with my Woodsman-II warrior, that civ was royally screwed. Finally declared peace with that civ, who would declare on me much later on and lose all his cities in the resulting counterattack.

Great Wall built. Then Stonehenge, yes, AFTER Great Wall.. I couldn't believe that nobody else was going for henge so I went for it myself even after GW. My 2nd city was next to marble, and made Oracle -> found Confu. My main city FINALLY got some stone support when halfway done with Pyramids, the stone sped things up and I went Representation of course. In the meantime: Aesthetics. Literature for Great Library.

Theo, Math (I think I traded for it; I also didn't bother going for hanging gardens), Calendar, Mausoleum.

Music.

Pop GA for golden age.

There. The first time in a long time I was first to Theo; I had not prioritized it before, but I think it's worth it since Christian holy city was the same as my Taoist one later on... I didn't wall street that since my Confu/Islam holy city had more cottages and was commercial from the get-go.

I followed that up with Divine Right and then Philosophy for 2 more religions, and yes I did build the AP first, and that meant +2 hammers for each of my state religious buildings, which adds up after a while, especially after forges and Org Religion bonuses.

So yes it is possible to prioritize Theo, and get a 100k+ score on Monarch or maybe higher. Hope that helps.

EDIT: 120450 final score, would be higher if I disabled Domination as a victory condition and could get Conquest--at the rate that I was conquering, I was adding more in points per turn than I was losing due to time!! I also didn't know that population factored so much into score, else I'd have farmed a heck of a lot more in the 1750s. 1785 Domination victory.

 

[Jet]

^^^ With all respect it hardly sounds like you prioritized Theology in that game! Calendar and Music first just does not count as prioritizing Theology.

 

[axident]

^^^ With all respect it hardly sounds like you prioritized Theology in that game! Calendar first just does not count as prioritizing Theology.

EDIT: I actually forgot the order and had to look it up. I apparently went for Theo in 150 BC and then went for Calendar in 50 AD. My great spy from the GW gave me total control of the situation: I knew exactly which techs to get to block someone from founding Xianity or getting Maus or whatever.

Also Music is awesome now--especially with Mausoleum. It's basically a free extended-length golden age! Before BtS, you needed 2 GP to start a golden age, and Music was kind of lame. The golden age can power you to Theo, no sweat. But, my bad, I need to edit my previous post in this thread to fix the timeline.

 

[Genghis Khan II]

If you are trying to get Christianity (just a guess, because I dont see much of a reason otherwise), just turn on the option in custom game that lets you choose the religion you found (so instead of founding hinduism when you reach polytheism, you can choose Islam).

If not, just listen to the other dudes that posted before me.

 

[neismond]

Racing to Theology has nothing to do with any units or wonders or such. It basically is that I am Catholic, and I want to be the one that discovers Christianity first. That is it

Some of the suggestions are good. I think it is more of just a personal choice than anything else, nothing against any other religions per se. I was just worried that my desire to win the Theology race was going to hinder me so much that any chance of success would be null and void. Seems like I still have options to win, which is good. Thanks!

And keep the suggestions coming please...

 

[Lord Chambers]

And keep the suggestions coming please...

Play multiplayer.

 

[axident]

Racing to Theology has nothing to do with any units or wonders or such. It basically is that I am Catholic, and I want to be the one that discovers Christianity first. That is it

Some of the suggestions are good. I think it is more of just a personal choice than anything else, nothing against any other religions per se. I was just worried that my desire to win the Theology race was going to hinder me so much that any chance of success would be null and void. Seems like I still have options to win, which is good. Thanks!

And keep the suggestions coming please...

You can set it so you can choose which religion to found when you found it, instead of automatically associating certain techs with certain religions. Just go for Meditation or something and choose Christianity.

 

[Big J Money]

You do realize you are talking to a Catholic, right?

=$=

 

[slobberinbear]

The problem with Theology is that it is an expensive tech that has a lot of prerequsites, most of which don't help your workers do stuff or improve your military.

The minimum techs required are animal husbandry, writing, (mysticism or mining), masonry, polytheism, and monotheism.

Also, if you beeline Theology, you may end up popping Judaism via Monotheism, ruining your Catholic love-fest. Or preparing the way for the Messiah, as you prefer.

I also like the Oracle ==> Theology slingshot. It's a little harder to do than Code of Laws (due to the requirement of Monotheism and its prerequisites), but it frees up all that research time to get more worker and military techs. Remember that Theology takes 500 beakers ... more than mining (50), bronze working (120), the wheel (60), agriculture (60), pottery (80), hunting (40), and archery (60) put together. You'll be able to have a much more well-rounded empire if you use the Oracle for pricey techs and research the fundamental stuff.

The other benefit of using the Oracle to pop Theology: you get the Great Prophet to build the holy shrine.

If you go for the Oracle route, I wouldn't start on the Theology prerequisites until I had the worker basics covered and could build a military unit better than a warrior.

 

[SealJuice]

I do the slingshot every game almost. I usually grab Code of Laws and wait for the priest to show up and get theology. At this point I usually have Hinduism, Judaism, Confuscism, and Christianity.

I don't win even half of my games but I do enjoy collecting the little religions.

 

[SickCycle]

You can always just go grab Beyond the Sword now and make a custom game with "Choose Religion"

You can grab Christianity with any Religious giving tech. If it's Theocracy your after you can build the new Wonder that allows all Religious civics.

 

[ratrangerm]

I've found the Oracle/Theology slingshot works best if I'm planning on a Cultural victory. Not only does founding Christianity means I can spread a religion in my borders (and the ensuing Temples/Cathedrals path), but I can also get a head start on the Sistine Chapel.

Of course, even when I intend to go for a Cultural victory, I pay attention to the military. It may mean by production city is the fourth city I build, but one of the first three I build can do some production of military until my fourth city is up and running.

 

[IronCrown]

I find it's actually much harder to found Christianity when 'choose religions' is enabled. Because on higher difficulty levels it is usually impossible to found the two early religions. And so many AIs have Christianity as their favorite religion that almost always some AI like Isabella will found it when researching buddhism.

If I want to have my own religion I always build Stonehenge, then lightbulb theology with the Great Prophet. But recently I usually adopt the religion of a powerful neighbor to boost relations.

 

[Naismith]

If you absolutely must found Christianity, and you have BTS, and you want to have a bit more variety in your early game tech path choices, then:
1) In game setup, enable choose religion.
2) Pick a Civ that starts with Mysticism.
3) Go straight to Meditation(?). If you get there first, choose Christianity, breath a sigh of relief, and proceed. If not, restart the game. At least you haven't invested much time in the game.

Purists may not like this idea, but I understand you have a compulsion to deal with, and I'm just trying to help.

By the way, I'm beginning to feel the same way about Theology, but for different reasons. I hate the idea of anyone else building the AP. It's just too powerful to let some other Civ get it. I must be Pope!!!

 

[SickCycle]

IronCrown makes a valid point, I've noticed that actually.

However, the only time I really try to found a religion is when I'm Financial + Myst and the starting location still dictates it more or less. I find Fin + Myst with a coastal or a luxury next to river or an oasis almost guarantees you a religion.

I've never played over Monarch though.