i need help

[blue_7]

Ok i starting playing civ3 many many many years ago and can beat it on deity or whatever the hardest level is called. but when i play civ4 its so much harder and different. i have been playing civ4 for about a month so far i can only beat noble games and normaly not by much. i tried playing multiplayer and well i got owned. so after reading just about every post on tips and strategies i decided to make this post and show you how i normally play a game. basically i want to know what i did wrong, right, how i can fix the things i did wrong, and maybe some extra tips. i don't care how brutally honest it is. i understand all the basics of the game but i cant seem to get good.

map-continents
size-standard
difficulty-noble
tech tree-BW, hunting, wheel, husbandry, archery, pottery, masonry, mysticism, meditation, priesthood, writing, COL

ok so i choose the Chinese because i like building wonders and i like having a good defense with automatic promotions. also the UU is pretty sweet

not the best starting location i ever had, but not horrible either. i got clams rice and some nice hills, not to mention fresh water from a lake. i would have moved where the blue circle was to get the cows as well but i didnt want to leave the hills and lose the hammers. so i built where i started.

i read somewhere that you should either go for a warrior or a worker first. you go warrior if your city is going to grow before the warrior is finished. if it doesn't you go worker. in this case i built warrior, who i sent out to explore. after that i went worker

my second city. its kinda out there but my thinking was to get a choke point between the mountains. and to get the corn and horses. it also was going to be a forward base to attack the Celts. i likes the flood plains. the only problem was there was a lot of mountains.

a little bit closer to capital, but far enough so it doesn't compete for tiles with my capital. it has gold and a calender resource, some flood plains, but unfortunately some mountains. it also became my forward base towards the Celts

85 turns in its not that bad. i built up a small army of axes my cities are growing fast. i have a few pissed off people because i was slaving a lil bit. i leveled my science at 70, and im only 4 points behind the leader.

i declared war on the Celts with my army. i knew that if i can take them out than i would have all the land to myself. i aimed straight for the capital and ignored the city to the north.

3 turns into the war i reached the Celtic capital. it was guarded by 2 archers and a warrior with 40 defense. i sent my axes in and lost about 3. not bad. i decided to keep it cause well it is the capital so it must be good.

COL was just finished and i founded confusism, sending my missionary up to my capital and converting. so i decided to go all the way over on the tech tree and quick on rifling. my theory behind this was i wanted to get rifles first that way i can slaughter everyone.

 

[blue_7]

here is the next part of my game

once the capital was secure i marched my army done to their biggest city. it was a 6 and guarded by 2 archers and a warrior. i won the city only losing 2 axes. i was deciding to keep it or burn it but in the end the city was to big to burn so i kept it. 2 turns later i moved my army into calndenum(or whatever its called). and was able to take it with only 1 axe left.

at the same time i was attacking the celts in the west i built up another army and attacked the city that i ignored previously to the north. i also choose to keep this city because it connected my cities and i probably would have built a city there anyways.

right about this time i realized how screwed i was. i had zero science with still some negative. to many cities. my people where getting pissed, i lost most of my army and the celts were still alive, i was horribly behind in science, and being a industry civ i got no wonders! so yeah what did i do wrong its obvious that i screwed up and how can i fix it.

the mistakes i know i made

to many cities
not enough workers(only 1)
didn't develop cities
should i have attacked the Celts?
go for rifling like that?
wrong city placement
focused to much on war

if anybody wants to try and salvage this game heres the file and enjoy. if you do manage to win this one can you show me what you did,

 

[Cam_H]

I really like where you're at. It's like the bottom point of what is going to be a great game! It's ugly now, but will come good.

If I were you I'd settle for peace with the lovely Boudica ... for a while. Get yourself together a bit and then take her out once and for all.

You simply have no economy ... but you do have Code of Laws, so can run a poor-man's Specialist Economy for a while.

To answer your questions ...

to many cities

Well you've clearly got happiness issues ... and Slavery ...

Whip away and then throw yourself into the Caste System. Run Merchants to pay for your large(ish) empire while you improve your situation.


not enough workers(only 1)

Correct. It's amazing you're doing so well.


didn't develop cities

Not so much of an issue right now, but you have to start specialising your cities. You simply have to build some Cottages around food-rich cities ... Shanghai is a classic.


should i have attacked the Celts?

You did great here.


go for rifling like that?

OMG no! If you're going to plan for 10 tech's away, at least make it Liberalism or Astronomy! I'm at a loss to know where to start, but Currency (Economy) and Construction (War) should be two to look at.


wrong city placement

Well, Shanghai could have gone one tile west and Guangzhou one tile north, but I won't quibble too much over that. You have other issues (starting with the world's hardest working Worker) to address.


focused to much on war

Well, you took to Civ3 now didn't you!

Your economy is in terrible shape, but it's very salvageable. I'd stop the war for now, improve your technological position, kill off the Celts, and get a better feel for your next expansion.

Build more Workers and Cottages!

(If I get time, I'll have a go at your game, although there are much more adroit players than my humble self who could really show you how to do it).

 

[blue_7]

You simply have no economy ... but you do have Code of Laws, so can run a poor-man's Specialist Economy for a while.

how do i do a poor-mans specialist economy

Not so much of an issue right now, but you have to start specialising your cities.

i tried specialising but i have no idea how to do that. so basically i shoot for all hybrid cities

Well, Shanghai could have gone one tile west and Guangzhou one tile north, but I won't quibble too much over that. You have other issues (starting with the world's hardest working Worker) to address.

i should have built them even farther away from my capital? there is no overlapping of the fat crosses. what would be the point of moving them farther out.

also was my choice for my capital placement good?

 

[Syiss_]

I played out a few turns, you are in a fine position if you just take some immediate action on your economy. You have a lot of gold to run a research deficit for a little while, and you can improve your situation by whipping out a Courthouse and a Worker in every city. Once you get your workers whipped out (you can have another 4-5 in just a couple turns by whipping them) use them to immediately start hooking up your cities and resources - you have a gold plot sitting there un-mined and not hooked up. Vienne also has an Ivory resource already with a camp on it, so once you get roads hooked up thats an immediate 2 happiness for every city (also, once you finish Monotheism which you already researching, switch in to Organized religion and use your capital to spread Confucianism to all your cities for another +1 happiness and also a little culture). Whip out Courthouses (especially in those distant cities) and a few turns later and you will be in a great position, and once Monarchy comes in you have some serious vertical growth possible in all those cities. Thats about as far as I played, but it put you back on top of the score list and with nothing else to worry about. Once you get your economy up and running, settle a couple more cities then decide how you want to finish out the game.

Some other random tips - I would cottage Shanghai up, and farm Ghangzou (use it for either a great person farm by running specialists, or a production site and mine up all those hills). Make peace with Boudica immediately, you have nothing left to gain by continuing that far. Make sure to watch for available tech trades, most of the AI's don't have Alphabet yet but they will be getting it soon.

Spoiler :

You are about to get declared on by Montezuma and Peter. Monty has a small stack he is going to send at Vienne, just make sure you stick 4-5 of your axes there and it will pose no threat at all. Peter was probably bribed by Montezuma, I never saw a single unit of his except a scout and was able to sign peace with him a few turns later after no battles.

EDIT: Stop making barracks. The first turn I loaded up, a barracks had just completed in Bibracte, and you have one building in Vienne right now. You are done with warring for a while until you recover your economy, focus on that and worry about barracks and units a little later.

 

[blue_7]

and once Monarchy comes in you have some serious vertical growth possible in all those cities.

ive heard vertical growth a couple times but i have no idea what that means

 

[Syiss_]

Verticl growth = city population, as opposed to "horizontal" growth which would be adding new cities.

 

[blue_7]

ah ok that makes sense.

back to the game. should i keep making wonders.

 

[Cam_H]

how do i do a poor-mans specialist economy

Fair enough. Sorry.

What I mean is that generally you support you economy with; (a.) an extaordinary number of commerce resources (Gold, Silver, and Gems spring to mind), (b.) initially running a lot of Merchant specialists while you develop your empire in other ways, where you might even pop a Great Merchant or two, and/or (c.) a Cottage-based economy where roughly 40% of your cities focus on working Cottages > Hamlets > Villages > Towns and Markets / Libraries / Universities / Grocers / Banks etc. that pay for upkeep and science for the rest of your empire, which in the meantime is generally churning out military (with the exception of the Great Person Farm ... but that's another complication).

There are other 'economies' that are discussed and debated at some length in these forums (e.g. the Religious economy and the Trade Route economy) but to keep it simple the main two are (b.) Specialist economy, and (c.) Cottage economy.

The reason I described it as "poor man's" is that you've not built The Pyramids and therefore it will be some time before you can get to the Representation civic where your specialists provide extra beakers. Usually when focussing on a Specialist Economy you have Representation running and run lots of specialist Scientists that pop lots of Great Scientists that get settled in your best science city. The citizens that you've converted into specialist Scientists plus the settled Great Scientists in concert with Representation can lead to a city that is just churning out beakers.

With that said, even without Representation, when you have a 'burdensomely' large early-game empire, running some Merchant specialists through adopting the Caste System as a civic will help off-set your oppresive maintenance costs. As it's still quite early in the game it doesn't take too long to pop a Great Merchant who can either be added to a commerce-oriented city or go on a Trade Mission.

I hope that's reasonably clear???

i tried specialising but i have no idea how to do that. so basically i shoot for all hybrid cities

Your empire is the human body. You have arms and legs that are good for punching and kicking, and you have a brain that's good for thinking. In this analogy we will discard the head-butt.

Production cities tend to be placed where there's food potential and production / hammer oriented tiles. So you find a spot that has Cows, Copper, and a nice mix of Hills and riverside Grassland ... yippee! You focus on working the mines and feeding the citizens working those mines. Farms and Mines. Farms and Mines. One more time ... Farms and Mines. An imbalance with too many Grasslands? Build Workshops and prospectively Watermills in the latter half of the game. These cities focus on units and the occasional building. A few of these cities will be good for; the Heroic Epic, Ironworks, West Point. These cities are the 'arms and legs'.

Commerce cities also need food ... lots of food. If you find a spot with one or two food resources, or maybe one food and one commerce, ideally with a river, then spam Cottages and work those Cottages into Towns. These cities don't build units, but science and economic buildings. One city, usually the capital, will get Oxford University. If you happen to have a worthwhile 'Shrined' Holy City, than that city might get Wall Street. These cities are the 'brain'. You need 'some' production in these cities to build Universities and what-not, but their focus is on growing Cottages.

Don't ask me for a human anatomy anology of a hybrid city, because they think that they can think for themselves like a brain ... but they can't ... and if you've ever had a kick in the hybrid city, then you'll know whether the foot is mightier than the sword.

i should have built them even farther away from my capital? there is no overlapping of the fat crosses. what would be the point of moving them farther out.

Shanghai one tile west would have got grassland Cows over a Flood Plains tile which is admittedly a bit hard to split and really could be debated either way, while Guangzhou one tile north wouldn't be competing with Shanghai for the two Flood Plains (there is overlap). As before, city placement i.m.h.o. isn't a priority concern in your game.

Hope this helps ... and best of luck!

 

[vicawoo]

Go worker first. There are exceptions, but in most cases (especially as china), go worker first.

Get enough workers that you can improve as fast as you grow. Mid game, or that stage between REXing/axe rushing and rifles as you might call it, grow as fast as you can and try to work as many grassland/floodplains cottages as you can. Most of your decisions from hereon are an attempt to aid this goal (unhappiness? hereditary rule and calendar resources) and multiply their effect (library, markets, bureaucracy, academy)

Stay in slavery.

 

[mjf200]

Overlapping cities is not a bad thing and can be quite good. It's been pointed out here a lot, a city will not be able use to all its available tiles until later in the game.
So in the early game you utilize your land better.

 

[CivMcNut]

I've had my economy go in the tank like that too. I've been running 10% science and still running a loss too. You start bouncing back once cities start vertically growing. A size 3 city isn't gonna bring you much, but a size 12 one can be extremely productive. Specializing cities is great when you can do it, but I win at monarch with having a lot of hybrid cities sometimes. Just focus on cottaging all the grassland around your cities and working them. Once you get courthouses down in every city the maintence costs get where you can have your slider at at least 40% science. I would stay away from trying to beeline rifiling from the classical age. There are too many useful techs along the way that keep your empire improving. You can leverage things like macemen.

 

[Cam_H]

mjf200,

In this game Guangzhou and Shanghai have overlap on two Floodplains tiles, which are highly sought after and really should be taken by Shanghai for Cottaging. If Guangzhou was one north it loses the Oasis but picks up some nice green tiles incl. a riverside Grassland ... at this point most of these tiles are covered by Celtic culture, but I'm not sure that would have been the case if it was initially settled one tile to the north.

I agree with you that generally overlap isn't a big issue, but blue_7 asked for feedback on city placement, and in my view while Guangzhou and Shanghai aren't badly placed, I'd not have them competing for the two Floodplains.

CivMcNut,

Just focus on cottaging all the grassland around your cities and working them.

I'd recommend a food count, or else your mines won't get worked at all. Also, chain irrigation to food poor cities or grain resources may be another consideration.

vicawoo,

(unhappiness? hereditary rule and calendar resources) and multiply their effect (library, markets, bureaucracy, academy)

Stay in slavery.

Yes, there's actually something to be said for that. blue_7 has enough cash in the bank to deficit research to comfortably get to Monarchy and swap into Hereditary Rule, so the Caste System need not necessarily be the clear best choice. Good point.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Whip away and then throw yourself into the Caste System. Run Merchants to pay for your large(ish) empire while you improve your situation.

Caste merchants are terrible for this. Use cottages.

 

[pi-r8]

Caste merchants are terrible for this. Use cottages.

If you have the pyramids then it can work pretty well.

 

[blue_7]

yeah i went back to the game an realized i did overlap the flood plains by accident which i would have never done on purpose. and i can see why you chose to move shanghi west one so that i can get the cows. but when i was building the city i wasnt looking far enough over to see them.

i started a few new games implementing the advice you guys gave me and imediatly i saw a huge imporvement. specializing cities is very useful. in one of my games i had 2 commerce cities one was my capital. 1 production city and another one which i got when i attacked the french. i had a GP city with a bunch of flood plains and i was working it with caste pumping out scientist. and lastly i had a small commerce/production city which was mainly built to get resources. by the time i was done with classical i had over 100 beakers coming in and i was so far ahead in science it wasnt even funny(which never happened in any of my previous games).

some more questions

what is the best wonders to get
should i ever build cottages on flood plains
in your opinion what are the best leader traits and civs
on a standard map how many cities should i build(i normally build 4)
is it smart to ignore Hinduism Buddhism and Judaism and go for confusism(which i always do)
whats better representation or hereditary rules
whats better axes or swords
i always build workshops on plains is that a good idea?
whats the point of windmills and water mills

 

[TheMeInTeam]

If you have the pyramids then it can work pretty well.

Jesus. Look, they give a better aggregate output than an early cottage then, but they still suck donkey at generating gold compared to cottages, especially on a per pop basis when you're cap limited. If you're trying to simply avoid strike, the answer is not rep merchants, assuming you even HAVE CoL to follow up an early rush (unlikely).

 

[blue_7]

i just started a new game and this was my starting spot. lol do i have enough food! what woudl this city most likely be.2 fish 3 clams 1 cow and flood plains to the east.

 

[blue_7]

even more its like a gift from god. im thinking a commerce city maybe somehwere around here

 

[vicawoo]

yeah i went back to the game an realized i did overlap the flood plains by accident which i would have never done on purpose. and i can see why you chose to move shanghi west one so that i can get the cows. but when i was building the city i wasnt looking far enough over to see them.

i started a few new games implementing the advice you guys gave me and imediatly i saw a huge imporvement. specializing cities is very useful. in one of my games i had 2 commerce cities one was my capital. 1 production city and another one which i got when i attacked the french. i had a GP city with a bunch of flood plains and i was working it with caste pumping out scientist. and lastly i had a small commerce/production city which was mainly built to get resources. by the time i was done with classical i had over 100 beakers coming in and i was so far ahead in science it wasnt even funny(which never happened in any of my previous games).

some more questions

what is the best wonders to get
should i ever build cottages on flood plains
in your opinion what are the best leader traits and civs
on a standard map how many cities should i build(i normally build 4)
is it smart to ignore Hinduism Buddhism and Judaism and go for confusism(which i always do)
whats better representation or hereditary rules
whats better axes or swords
i always build workshops on plains is that a good idea?
whats the point of windmills and water mills

Best wonders to get:
you'll become better faster if you ignore them. but if you really like shiny things, pyramids, great library, great lighthouse, oracle, apostolic palace early on. Later on, taj mahal, statue of liberty, kremlin, 3 gorges.

flood plains:
there's this autistic guy who always says cottages if you ask him any question about improvements, especially concerning flood plains. or at least i assume he's autistic by his short, repetitive responses; he might just really like cottages.

best leaders and traits:
julius caesar, hatshepsut, huayna, but they tend to abuse more specific strategies. If you like wonders, ramses is your friend.
Traits, spiritual is really good, but for someone learning, you should stick with other good traits. I recommend financial, creative, charismatic, strong benefits that you don't have to think about.

how many cities:
early on, a better question is how much land do i want. You don't necessarily have to settle it, but you don't want other civs to. The answer, as much as you can get. Block with your cities, go to war if you have to. Midgame, you're in let's make as many cottages as I can mode, and you settle your land accordingly. Later on, you can settle cities to utilize every green tile and resource.

Religions:
Often its smarter to pick the religion of the biggest threat. The benefit of good diplomacy outweighs founding religions.

HR vs representation:
HR has the potential to provide as much happiness as you need, representation gives a large science benefit. If the +3 bonus from representation keeps your cities happy, representation.

Axes vs swords:
Swords are better vs archers, mounted, siege. Axes are much better against other melee units. If they have their own axes, it's much better to have axes. If they don't, swords.

Windmills and watermills: more food