[BTS] I need some CIV expert opinions on this one - I don't know what do do here

[CGQ]

I've been playing and winning immortal games left and right and I actually managed to win about 5 of them in a row, typically with domination of some form around 1400-1800 AD. I started another one on a Fractal map, and well..

Spoiler :

I started with Catherine of Russia, managed to build Mids and used REP. Got a GE and used him for Great Library for both faster scientists and more rep scientists. I managed to get to Math + Construction quickly, built a bunch of Axes and Cats (I had no iron), DOW'd in 250 BC (Turn 105) and managed to kill my immediate neighbor Brennus in 300 AD (Turn 127).

RIP Bennus:

I almost went for Hanni but he already had longbows and those are very difficult to take out with just cats/Axes, plus economy needed to recover. REP scientists were helping me get through techs such as paper thankfully. I also managed to get horses from Wang Kong and got an artist with Music, used him for GA, switched to CS + PACI and ran a huge amount of REP-Boosted scientists. I actually managed to get two great merchants!

I debated going for the steel lib and upgrade cats, but Cuirs are more fun and faster, so I decided a Cuir rush would be nice and quick and I can use my remaining cat/Axes for collateral. I was able to double-bulb education while teching nationalism, and managed a third scientist for Lib. I was ready to take on the world! I went in to one of my cities and switch it to their first Cuir when I came upon a harrowing, cruel realization...

I have no IRON... In my lack of better judgement, I went through the whole Nationalism Lib song and dance only to realize I had no iron anywhere! I figured as I played on auto-pilot I was all set when I got horses from Wang Kong...but I forgot about the iron component. Unhhhhh....

One thing I did try was flutily attack Hannibal with my remaining Cats/Axes and get his iron. I even used the GM money to upgrade my axes to maces, built a few extra cats and even horses and....he absolutely wiped my stack out before they could even take the first city. My Maces and horses stood no chance against his superior knights and pikeman so that's a no-go.

After looking at my situation, the only other feasible options are as follows:

1. Trade two of my health/happiness resources to Isabella for elephants, or 17 GPT. Elephants would be a much better match against knights, so I could switch back to Slavery, whip a bunch of elephants/cats, mix them with my upgraded maces and take Hanni's iron. Afterwards, I figure I can make peace then use my 2nd or 3rd GM (From economics) to upgrade them to Cuirs and finish him and everyone else off?

2. Go back to my 300 AD save when I just finished off Brennus, go for the STEEL bulb instead and use the GM's to upgrade to cannons and become unstoppable...oh wait that's right NO IRON.

3. Go back to my 300 AD save and say to hell with my economy and try to continue and attack Hannibal before he gets maces/knights? I'm actually going to try this one first and report back on how this goes!

4. Cheat and slip in an iron tile with World Editor? I swear no one will notice!

I attached my 300 AD and 840 AD save. For those who want to play this map I also attached the 4000 BC start as well! Happy playing!

 

[AcaMetis]

No time to examine the saves, but

Spoiler :

is no one willing to trade iron? It'll be prohibitively expensive, but with two great merchants you can pre-build horse archers, trade for iron, upgrade, and cut off one of the resources used for the trade so it auto-cancels after you end turn.

.

 

[CGQ]

No time to examine the saves, but

Spoiler :

is no one willing to trade iron? It'll be prohibitively expensive, but with two great merchants you can pre-build horse archers, trade for iron, upgrade, and cut off one of the resources used for the trade so it auto-cancels after you end turn.

.

Spoiler Tried that and... :

Ugh...

I cancelled trades with other AI too. Even if he somehow gives us iron we still need his horses to upgrade...

 

[AcaMetis]

Oof.

Spoiler :

Could try trading away stuff Wang doesn't want to other AIs for stuff that Wang does want, and/or something like flipping into Buddhism to try and push Wang up to Friendly and lower the trade prices (I think they're lower when the AI is Friendly?), but even so getting Iron and Horses is going to be a nightmare.

 

[sampsa]

Pay gold per turn obviously. You need to set the slider to zero before opening the negotiation window.

 

[CGQ]

Pay gold per turn obviously. You need to set the slider to zero before opening the negotiation window.

Tried that and still nothing. Even at 60 gold per turn...

 

[CGQ]

Oof.

Spoiler :

Could try trading away stuff Wang doesn't want to other AIs for stuff that Wang does want, and/or something like flipping into Buddhism to try and push Wang up to Friendly and lower the trade prices (I think they're lower when the AI is Friendly?), but even so getting Iron and Horses is going to be a nightmare.

Spoiler Tried that too :

No matter what he doesn't want to work with me. I got horse from Isabella but no way to get iron from him.

 

[CarpoolKaraoke]

This is an option:

Spoiler :

Doubly so because you're playing Russia!

 

[a pen-dragon]

Spoiler :

As above, Cavs are an option, but also Rifles+trebs do ok.

Tanks are quite far, but could work.

Independent, but I see unimproved grasslands around your capital. Should be cottages. Also Workshops are currently counter-productive, as you want food to whip. Prebuilding them is good if you have free worker turns, but missing cottages around your capital means you do not. River tiles are not the only ones you can cottage.

Furthermore you should spread irrigation to your farm resources, again because you want food.

I want to state that REP does not mean that scientists beat cottages, because the cottages will also provide food. Think of the scientists as gold mines, they have a great commerce (science) yield, but take a lot of food to maintain. This means that two reasonably well grown cottages will beat a gold mine (scientist) in commerce and still provide more food. Thus scientists and gold mines should only be worked at the happy cap, and as you are on a Pangaea, this should be high.

Looking at your screenshots, you seem to have hired scientists too early and consequently significantly weakened your economy. A stronger economy gets you the important techs earlier and allows you to go deeper in the tech tree if you need to, or gets you more GPT to buy resources.

 

[Fippy]

Iron costs 110+ gold per turn.
But there's an easy solution to reach that
All cities on wealth, mines and merchants to replace food tiles (where no cottages are)..then negotiate your deal (including copper for example, then ask what will make this deal work?).
When it's done your cities can switch back to normal.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

Thoughts early game strategy decision.

Spoiler :

Why build The Pyramids if there is gold, gems, and wine nearby? Happiness limit is not a problem. The stone is not even placed at a good location.

I would axe-rush for the holy city. Imperialistic trait can generate a quick great general to maintain momentum. Then build up to maceman or something, don't need iron.

Where's the iron on the map?

 

[Gumbolt]

Astronomy and hope for islands with iron? That or try cavalry/rifles.

 

[drewisfat]

It's more than a hope, I'd say it's known there's an island with iron on it judging by how little iron is on the continent and all the land tiles not accounted for. So you could focus your army/IMP settlers on claiming everything and go for a very long game, maybe even be able to peacevassal Carthage. The problem I think is that you went mids specialists in lieu of cottages, so you're really not set up to play that kind of a long game.
Cossacks might be your best bet if you're unwilling to go back and keep conquering Hannibal. It can't be that difficult though since he's stuck to 6 cities.
I'm not sure on the pyramids play, but I see you naturally settled on stone. You were so cramped at the start, which to me means either choose wonder or war, not both, and I think war would have been stronger with the map/leader.
But yeah truly unusual map that there was one natural iron for 3 civs. Definitely a lesson learned about tracking strategics to make sure your long-term plan makes sense.

 

[Gumbolt]

It's more than a hope, I'd say it's known there's an island with iron on it judging by how little iron is on the continent and all the land tiles not accounted for. So you could focus your army/IMP settlers on claiming everything and go for a very long game, maybe even be able to peacevassal Carthage. The problem I think is that you went mids specialists in lieu of cottages, so you're really not set up to play that kind of a long game.
Cossacks might be your best bet if you're unwilling to go back and keep conquering Hannibal. It can't be that difficult though since he's stuck to 6 cities.
I'm not sure on the pyramids play, but I see you naturally settled on stone. You were so cramped at the start, which to me means either choose wonder or war, not both, and I think war would have been stronger with the map/leader.
But yeah truly unusual map that there was one natural iron for 3 civs. Definitely a lesson learned about tracking strategics to make sure your long-term plan makes sense.

Optics would be fine for this. If you find iron then you go astronomy.

 

[Fippy]

Did what i wrote above, pics inside

Spoiler :

The second one just shows how cities can further increase your gpt value for trading. Ofc they go back to normal right away when iron (and horsies?) are secured.
No overall plan change needed with 3.3k gold available.

 

[notslin]

I understand this tactic -- of trading resource + gpt for strategic resource, and then auto-canceling it same turn -- is standard.

But it feels kind of cheap, because you're able to use the strategic resource for upgrades, without paying the gpt.

I guess in the end it just means that strategic resources are not critical for cuirs in some situations, with proper planning.

 

[CGQ]

Did what i wrote above, pics inside

Spoiler :

View attachment 731653
View attachment 731654

The second one just shows how cities can further increase your gpt value for trading. Ofc they go back to normal right away when iron (and horsies?) are secured.
No overall plan change needed with 3.3k gold available.

Spoiler Tried Fippy's strategy and... :

1200 AD Hannibal has been wiped out! I kept the trade for 2 or so turns to whip another round of 10-12 Cuirs to ensure he's wiped out!

Well, now we got a nice stack of cuirs and we got horse and iron now from Hannibal. While the next obvious target here seems to be Isabella, she's my best friend and she's been my best friend the entire game. She's given me so much, and even when I politely declined her requests to join her wars, she still has my back. I don't know if I should back-stab her. Is she a fake friend? Does she only like me for my religion? Or does she love me for who I truly am as a person? A leader?

I can reinforce my cuirs and attack her or another AI of course, but the other question is what do I do with my lovely stack of Cats/Axes?

Should I upgrade them to cannons and have them slowly take cities on one side while the cuirs take others? Or have the cuirs take one CIV and the other CIV? Or just have them sit there and look nice for the people living there?

 

[Chalybion]

Does Isabella have techs and research power to catapult you to the next level of military techs? If so, it could be good to keep her as a friendly trade partner. Korea is probably a tech leader, so it could be good to vassal them instead of attacking Izzy.
Does Isabella have Conquistadors yet? They are nasty, because they match your Cuirs in the open field, and they also get defensive bonuses, meaning you will be fighting at 30-40% odds in cities. Pre-emptively attacking would ensure an easier conquest.
It looks like Wang and Izzy might go to war each other, try cleaning up a few cities after they send in their unit stack.
Catapults would be good for capturing a border city or a high culture city vs. Isabella, while minimizing Cuir losses. Plan ahead so that they don't slow down your mounted attack.

 

[aitkensam]

I played this game from the start for some fun. Ended with a conquest win.

Spoiler :

Played in more of a Henrik style than a me style (albeit with worse technique!), in that I killed Brennus with catapults, then Hannibal with trebs (capturing his Mids and demanding iron and horse after capitulating) and then went onto murder the rest of the world with trebs and knights. Made a nice change from cuirs (although more micro heavy...) and did end up with a fairly fast end date.
Some end game screenshots.

Spoiler :

 

[Henrik75]

this is a good challenge immortal game based off the start, ill play this on video (prob wont be out for a couple weeks) but itll be there if you want to see how a deity player approaches this