I need some suggestions on how to make feudalism gvt. more appealing
- Thread starter meltone1
- Start date
Well naturally Feudalism wasn't the best gov't, but I agree with you that it needs to be more appealing. In fact, when I play a game I end up chosing Feudalism in the end just to be more unique from the Democratic, Communist, or Fascist gov'ts out there.
Perhaps a little increase for unit support and perhaps better unit or fortification bonuses would make it more appealing?
I'd like to hear ideas to make Feudalism much better. You got any good ideas meltone?
Perhaps a little increase for unit support and perhaps better unit or fortification bonuses would make it more appealing?
I'd like to hear ideas to make Feudalism much better. You got any good ideas meltone?
Dom Pedro II
Modder For Life
In my mod, Feudalism gives all units free and no maintenance costs but terrible corruption, war weariness, and the standard tile penalty.
It's meant for people who want big, cheap militaries.
Also, another good idea to make it more appealing: Castles. Make a government-specific improvement. Gives added defense.
In fact, I hate the idea of Knights being "produced" in civilization as they are a product of the nobility. I would, therefore, suggest this as a totally radical idea... make a Manor improvement that generates a Knight every few turns, but other than this, there's no way to produce Knights.
It's meant for people who want big, cheap militaries.
Also, another good idea to make it more appealing: Castles. Make a government-specific improvement. Gives added defense.
In fact, I hate the idea of Knights being "produced" in civilization as they are a product of the nobility. I would, therefore, suggest this as a totally radical idea... make a Manor improvement that generates a Knight every few turns, but other than this, there's no way to produce Knights.
Hmm I don't have much experience with gvt's, mostly units, but I'm working on it. Feudalism has 3 main things against it, forced labor, 3 gold per unit maintenance, and little unit support for cities/metro's. It has high unit support for towns, but that's not of much importance unless have you just captured/built a bunch of cities and then you switch over to feudalism. I think something that I may look into is no maintenance cost. We'll see.
BTW, Does anyone know what "xenophobic" and "forced resettlement" flags do in the editor?
Also, I wonder how the diplomacy was under a feudal system, and if the vassals played a part in this. I was thinking about changing diplomats to "veteran", although I'm not sure.
BTW, Does anyone know what "xenophobic" and "forced resettlement" flags do in the editor?
Also, I wonder how the diplomacy was under a feudal system, and if the vassals played a part in this. I was thinking about changing diplomats to "veteran", although I'm not sure.
Drift
It's a boy!
Why should feudalism be a government for all situations? It's not for builders. It's for warmongers who keep their cities small and increase their unit support usually with 5 each time they capture a city. Huge armies can be built without paying the 3 gold for any of the units.
Well, the main question I have is why would you choose feudalism as opposed to, say, monarchy? Feudalism actually has war weariness, so I wouldn't necessarily say it's for warmongers.
With monarchy, you can probably bring in more unit support total from your more established cities (4 for cities, 2 for towns) than you could from your towns in feudalism(2 for cities, 5 for towns). I say you would probably have more unit support in monarchy because your typical ratio of cities to towns will be much higher than towns to cities, in most situations. If you had, say, 10 cities and 5 towns, you would have 50 unit support for monarchy, and 35 unit support for feudalism. I use these numbers (10 and 5) because at the point of the game where you research feudalism, many of your cities have grown past size six, and 2:1 would be a probable ratio of cities to towns at this point.
Perhaps bumping up unit support to 6 and 3 for feudalism wouldn't be a bad idea, (for towns and cities) also maybe increasing military police from 3 to 4 to compensate for war weariness, although i'm not totally convinced that war weariness should even be present.
With monarchy, you can probably bring in more unit support total from your more established cities (4 for cities, 2 for towns) than you could from your towns in feudalism(2 for cities, 5 for towns). I say you would probably have more unit support in monarchy because your typical ratio of cities to towns will be much higher than towns to cities, in most situations. If you had, say, 10 cities and 5 towns, you would have 50 unit support for monarchy, and 35 unit support for feudalism. I use these numbers (10 and 5) because at the point of the game where you research feudalism, many of your cities have grown past size six, and 2:1 would be a probable ratio of cities to towns at this point.
Perhaps bumping up unit support to 6 and 3 for feudalism wouldn't be a bad idea, (for towns and cities) also maybe increasing military police from 3 to 4 to compensate for war weariness, although i'm not totally convinced that war weariness should even be present.
warpstorm
Yumbo? Yumbo!
If you use a dense packing strategy with warlike tendencies (like I tend to), Feudalism is the gov't of choice.
Gogf
Indescribable
I say remove war weariness. BTW, because the rush method is forced labor, you can bring your cities down to towns, and use that decrease to build things. You then sell the aquaducts you had built in other govrernments. Can someone explain to me how military police work, as it is relavent here, and I never understood them.
mil. police makes an unhappy citizen content I believe. I thought 4 because that is the same as communism and fascism, and feudalism is more of a brutal regime than monarchy, so I think it should be 4. (As opposed to 3 with monarchy) This could somewhat offset war weariness..
OK, I'm gonna try 6 unit support for town, 2 for city, 2 extra for units not supported, and veteran diplomats. (Just because I think it's kind of cool, and I think vassals could be figured into that somehow
)
Oh, and warp, when you talk about dense packing strat, are you talking about ICS? I guess it could work for that pretty good..
OK, I'm gonna try 6 unit support for town, 2 for city, 2 extra for units not supported, and veteran diplomats. (Just because I think it's kind of cool, and I think vassals could be figured into that somehow
)Oh, and warp, when you talk about dense packing strat, are you talking about ICS? I guess it could work for that pretty good..
warpstorm
Yumbo? Yumbo!
MPs make one unhappy worker content each. (ANy military unit is an MP) Feudalism essentially lets you have 3 extra unhappy people (assuming 3 defenders). This gives you quite few turns before War Weariness becomes terrible.
IMHO Feudalism is COMPLETELY mis-modelled: it was a very decentralized, agrarian, non-monetary-economy system heavily prone to infighting.
I'm playing around with it as:
COMMUNAL corruption (remember that decentralization ...)
FORCED hurry method (of course)
WAR WEARINESS LOW (yeah, that one war did last 100 years, but it was really a lot of littler wars tied together by common circumstance)
DRAFT LIMIT 1 (and that's a "fyrd", poorly armed and trained peasant infantry)
1 FREE UNIT per town, city, and/or metropolis
GOV SPECIFIC CASTLE improvement for Knights (3/3/2 for chainmail & 4/4/2 for plate mail; free maintenance) -and-
GOV SPECIFIC MANOR for English Longbowmen (1/4/1 - 1/0/2; maintenance=1)
OTHER UNITS: Halberdiers (1/2/1) upgrade to Pikemen (2/4/1); Bowmen (1/2/1 - 1/0/1) to Crossbowmen (1/3/1 - 2/0/1) (all maintenance=1)
Rational for unit costs is that Knights were basically there to fight; other units represent people not working the land.
Note that the "inverse support" ratio (more units per town than metropolis) is an interesting way of trying to represent the non-urban nature of Feudalism -- I just think my way's better
.
Feudally Yours,
Oz
I'm playing around with it as:
COMMUNAL corruption (remember that decentralization ...)
FORCED hurry method (of course)
WAR WEARINESS LOW (yeah, that one war did last 100 years, but it was really a lot of littler wars tied together by common circumstance)
DRAFT LIMIT 1 (and that's a "fyrd", poorly armed and trained peasant infantry)
1 FREE UNIT per town, city, and/or metropolis
GOV SPECIFIC CASTLE improvement for Knights (3/3/2 for chainmail & 4/4/2 for plate mail; free maintenance) -and-
GOV SPECIFIC MANOR for English Longbowmen (1/4/1 - 1/0/2; maintenance=1)
OTHER UNITS: Halberdiers (1/2/1) upgrade to Pikemen (2/4/1); Bowmen (1/2/1 - 1/0/1) to Crossbowmen (1/3/1 - 2/0/1) (all maintenance=1)
Rational for unit costs is that Knights were basically there to fight; other units represent people not working the land.
Note that the "inverse support" ratio (more units per town than metropolis) is an interesting way of trying to represent the non-urban nature of Feudalism -- I just think my way's better
.Feudally Yours,
Oz
Dom Pedro II
Modder For Life
Originally posted by ozymandias
IMHO Feudalism is COMPLETELY mis-modelled: it was a very decentralized, agrarian, non-monetary-economy system heavily prone to infighting.
I'm playing around with it as:
COMMUNAL corruption (remember that decentralization ...)
FORCED hurry method (of course)
WAR WEARINESS LOW (yeah, that one war did last 100 years, but it was really a lot of littler wars tied together by common circumstance)
DRAFT LIMIT 1 (and that's a "fyrd", poorly armed and trained peasant infantry)
1 FREE UNIT per town, city, and/or metropolis
GOV SPECIFIC CASTLE improvement for Knights (3/3/2 for chainmail & 4/4/2 for plate mail; free maintenance) -and-
GOV SPECIFIC MANOR for English Longbowmen (1/4/1 - 1/0/2; maintenance=1)
OTHER UNITS: Halberdiers (1/2/1) upgrade to Pikemen (2/4/1); Bowmen (1/2/1 - 1/0/1) to Crossbowmen (1/3/1 - 2/0/1) (all maintenance=1)
Rational for unit costs is that Knights were basically there to fight; other units represent people not working the land.
Note that the "inverse support" ratio (more units per town than metropolis) is an interesting way of trying to represent the non-urban nature of Feudalism -- I just think my way's better
Feudally Yours,
Oz
I tried my feudalism with communal corruption originally, but I found that it made it too GOOD. But then I also gave free maintenance costs and free unit costs to represent the decentralization. Considering that it was the vassals' responsibility to supply the troops, I think it makes sense.
I also made it so that you can't hurry AT ALL.
Also, when you say government-specific improvements for Knights and Longbowman, do you mean using the Conquest feature that produces a unit every so many turns?
If so, do you allow for the production of Knights and Longbowman by other means?
And I don't really understand the inclusion of the other units since they aren't really affected by government type, but maybe that was just a deviation from topic?
Gogf
Indescribable
I hope you mean three less
, if not, than military police are a not only useless, they hurt you.warpstorm
Yumbo? Yumbo!
Yes, it is less.
Good idea
(1) yes (2) no -- As I say, I'm still experimenting, trying to get the right "tempo" for increasing / replenishing medieval armies (recall, the main mod I'm working on begins in 1170 CE). I'm also planning on experimenting with population costs for all units EXCEPT knights (again, these were human resources turned away from the land, let only towns and/or cities)
And I don't really understand the inclusion of the other units since they aren't really affected by government type, but maybe that was just a deviation from topic?
Just giving a sense as to how the whole medieval military panoply looks, given that I'd already mentioned some modded stats.All The Best,
Oz
Dom Pedro II
Modder For Life
Oz, all I can say is be VERY careful with the population costs for these units...
I tried this once and the result was that the AI literally committed suicide by mass-producing units like it usually did without any regard to the effect it would have on its cities.... In one game, I was almost 20 techs ahead of the next best civilization, and I'm usually on par with them or 1 or 2 ahead.
EDIT:
Also, I assume you use flavor units in your game (though maybe you don't for European civs) anyway, if you set the city improvement to build a Knight, what happens if you're a civilization using a flavor unit knight?
I tried this once and the result was that the AI literally committed suicide by mass-producing units like it usually did without any regard to the effect it would have on its cities.... In one game, I was almost 20 techs ahead of the next best civilization, and I'm usually on par with them or 1 or 2 ahead.
EDIT:
Also, I assume you use flavor units in your game (though maybe you don't for European civs) anyway, if you set the city improvement to build a Knight, what happens if you're a civilization using a flavor unit knight?
Hi Dom Pedro!
-Thanks for the caution re: pop cost.
Insofar as your question re: flavors, basically I treat all of northwestern Europe as one "flavor" for this purpose.
-Oz
I have found Feudalism completely useless as well, in comparison to Monarchy. One way to improve it would be to revert the unit costs between monarchy and feudalism (as someone pointed out, in feudalism its the peasants that support the military) - or to avoid making monarchy too bad an option, give it only 2 support cost instead of 3. Draft and military police limits could also be raised by one.
Those are all just ideas, haven't yet tested none of it.
Btw, knights didn't exist because of the nobility - it was the nobility that existed because of the knight order.
Those are all just ideas, haven't yet tested none of it.
Btw, knights didn't exist because of the nobility - it was the nobility that existed because of the knight order.
They were one in the same -- inseparable. Military overlords of a peasant society chartered into respectability by knighthood and eventually a very confusing set of codes of conduct, i.e., owing allegiance to two different barons and thereby being obliged to sit out a war between the two.
-Oz
Dom Pedro II
Modder For Life
Well, didn't it originally stem from the fact that warriors were moving into the cultivated lands and chasing out their former owners and then the generals were rewarded with lands?... it was therefore martial from its very beginning.
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