I need tips for this particular CIV

[Ticio]

I already post another thread in the past to ask for some tips, but even using them I having some problems using Spain.

At the end I just use Germany, England or japan as I found them to be super strong.

But I don't want to give up with Spain, I'm sure I'm playing bad with them and I can do something better!


So,

- Spain

Is a civ that on paper would be my favorite (Spain or England). But I never perform well with them.

They are too depending on luck. If you spawn in a big continent you are doom, and you don't have Bias to continent frontier...so...

They have a bias to water, but they don't look as an strong water civ, I would say is the contrarie.

Bonuses:

1) You can form fleets and armadas on Mercantilism. Okay, but who is forming them before having the Seaport? or the Venetian Arsenal? before then you have to waste production making one by one the naval units and then putting them together.
Just wait for Seaport and you can save a lot of production making directly the fleets and armadas, but by then you will unlock the hability to form them as any nation, so the bonus is lost.

It can be nice on water maps and in a military emergency, but I think is not worth the production and time to form armadas, before the seaports so is just okay on Water maps.

2) Trade routes between different continents give you +1 food/production. this was the the bonus that make me choose spain as the first civ to play. At the start I thougt it was insane, but lately no so much.

The problem is that you have other civs that have a similar bonus but easier to put.

For example:

- Germany, with +1 district you will always a district ahead, so your routes will have a +1 food or +1 prod. + the benefits for the city and the Great person points.
Adding + Production in the city of destination > faster districts > more yields.

So germany as a, more or less, the same Bonus, but better (Better city + GP + merchants as CH gives adjacency to Industrial Zones).

So with germany I ended with more traders and more yields for internal trade that with Spain

- England, similar to germany, Faster ports and industrial zones= more yields and more merchants.

And the most important, as England you don't need to be on another continent to be able to have an strong civ. You look for other continents to have extra merchants and free military units.
So just EXTRA stuff, good if you get it, but your bonus do not depend on that.


As Spain you HAVE TO go to other continents to activate the bonuses, and if you are unlucky you are doom from the start.
You do not get "Extra stuff" for going to other continents, you get your main bonuses. So the cities on the same continents are weak.

Then you will, almost always, be late founding cities on other continents (phoenicians and english will be always faster, and stronger at this point but in general a lot of other civs will be faster than spain).

Even more, How much is +1 food/prod, how much it represents in comparisson to a 50% discount on atype of district?

I assume as the game progresses and the disctricts start to become more and more expensive, the 50% turn to be better and better a the +1 Food/prod become worst and worst.
So is a good bonus at the start, but it become weaker as the time goes on. Adding that you will start to put cities on other continents after some time, the profit of the bonus is not very strong.


3) Missions, I think they are a great tile improvement but in general I think that tile improvements are weaker than discounted districts.

I mainly think that becuase you loose adjacency to disctricts. For example, Mission are insane and you should place them adjacent to science and religious districts, they give a lot of faith and science, but you will loose the adjacency cards (doubles adjacency to science, religion, etc). They could not be better than the total of surrounding missions, but you gain space for other things, like farms (housing) or city state good tiles.

In general I think mission are quite good, but they are a "poisoned gift".
If you want to be up to the scientific race, and use missions, you must build always science and religious districts.

That means no room for new traders, so no merchants, so no intercontinental bonus...

AND that's the problem I see on spain. Lack of focus. Is like the opposite of Germany.

Germany: focus on Production = you focus on whatever you want, you will be on top

England: Focus on trade and production = you wll always be on top because you can produce and pay for everything (and use extra traders to boost anything you need)

Spain= Focus on religion, trade, militar, science and culture = You don't have the tools > you will fail on all of them.


Spain lacks a way to achieve their bonuses, because all of these bonuses are in very different branches of differents sptialities.

For example:

You want to profit the intercontinental bonus =

1) Need colonize other continent BUT not help getting more colonist, or in production, so you will loose the "race" to more suited civs for colonization SO no bonus.

2) Need more merchants for continental bonus BUT you have to prioritize Science/religion districts for the missions and not dragging behind

3) Need a religion for +4 attack? you will be the last getting a religion because lack of bonuses to make it faster = you will have to stick with other guy religion, and you will loose the bonus against him and all the other civs converted (thing that happens because if you are converted, others usually are too).

4) So you want your religion? Then Spam reigious districts BUT drag on everything (science, culture, CH, etc)

5) But you want your Armadas, missions and Theocracy? then you need Theater districts to get culture to go fast, but the you sacrifice Traders, science and religion.

And you need A LOT of culture, because missions are in in branch of the tree, but theocracy and Mercantilism too...

So you have to focus on one, and have the rest very very late.

In conclusion:

Spain is the opposite of Germany.

Germany = bonus/focus Production = everything you want and need. Versatility.

Sain = Bonus/focus on Religion/Science/Militar/Civic = You will never reach all of them, so you will loose a lot of your bonuses and you have to choose wich on you loose. Making you be dragging on the rest.

No science = Bad army, even with conquistadors

No religion = Lacking the bonus +4 attack against some enemies and agaisnt the one who created the religion, that you must destroy militarly if you want religious victory

No Culture = Late Armadas, missions (less faith and science) and theocracy.

No Commercial/ports = Less traders > less production and food > less of the other districts.


SO how do I play with Spain?

I normally go; City new continent > Port/ Commercial HUb > worker > science district > Religious District > Culture one.

But I end up lagging on military, so no advatage with conquistadors, also with very low production and loosing all the wonders and a lot of GP as others are faster on everything.

Needing so many workers for the missions is also a pain in the ass...

I'm using Bad Spain? what do you do normally?


Thank you very much and I'm very sorry for the long post!!

 

[Basajaun]

Thats true, they have powerful bonuses but they dont connect too well between each other.
I guess the way you would play them is in the same way you would play a late game focused civ with religion intertwined.
- Plant one or 2 holy sites as soon as possible to guarantee your religion.
- Settle as much as you can before heading out to the sea. Have 1 or 2 cities on coast and build 2 galleys. Take them out exploring together, in case theres coastal barb camps with quadriremes.
- If you can reach another continent (most likely by sea) and theres usable land, halt whatever you are doing in your 2-3 main cities, and work on a couple settlers. Make sure, if you have a close neighbor in your continent, to work on your relations, and plant some military units in/around the closest city to their lands, to deter possible invasions. If for whatever reason you cant avoid being declared war, your exploration will have to wait a bit until you intimidate your neighbor enough or eliminate them.
- Save your gold for monuments, especially for your first cities, to kickstart a good civics tree progress.
- Also you dont need a holy site in every city, even if you want to win a religious victory. As long as it allows you to convert your cities and fight other civs with your debater apostles, you are good. Perhaps build one extra holy site in those cities very close to other civs with a religion, just so that you can buy the apostle there, or guard it in the holy site (bonus points for moving moksha to where religious fights are occurring). I find that the easiest/most cost effective way to convert my cities is to wait behind the bushes with a debater apostle. When a civ sends missionaries or apostles your way, you intercept and kill them, and poof, extra 250 pressure for surrounding cities. Make sure you take good care of your 1 charge debaters, and all will be fine.

So for example, for cities on the new continent, Put a harbor if you have a spot for at least, a +3, OR a campus if there is reef/mountain for a +2/+3. Buy/build the lighthouse/library and then depending on what you have around, you build the holy site, or build the district that you didnt build when settling. Use ancestrall hall and Hic Sunt Dracones dedication as soon as you can, and whatever dedication benefits most for your empire up to that point. Considering you have focused on religion as Spain, you have a good faith economy, exodus of the evangelists is an easy way to guarantee a golden age. If you already are at a golden age before Hic Sunt Dracones, you might want to pick monumentality to buy discounted settlers and builders with gold or faith to speed up your expansion or developing your cities.

What I usually do when I want to colonize the world in a water heavy map, is have half a dozen (or more) settlers ready before I get Hic Sunt dracones golden age dedication, and once I pick it, plant the settlers (with the +2 extra build for builders card slotted), and suddenly you have a really solid foothold of 4 pop cities and 5 charge builders for chopping/improving your lands. 6 if you found a moment to built Pyramids. That speeds things up a lot. Once the cities are planted you can swap the +2 builder charge card for the growth/production cards on another continent and go from there. If you use religious colonization every city you found will start with your religion in place so thats 4 followers more per city founded. And the same with these, bring a debater to protect/ convert surrounding cities if they come to convert you (AI loves targetting low pop cities for conversion).

I hope I was clear enough, I hope it helps

PD: Oh and dont lose your sleep over armadas, you wont be able to make much use of them anyway unless you play a REALLY water heavy map. Most of the time your melee naval units will be used just to fight barbarians. AI rarely settles heavily by the coast.

 

[Basajaun]

Then after all that, you realize that the other continent can be reached by land in a 2tile pass in the arctic, and your ships are trapped in a glorified lake until you melt the icecaps.

 

[Ticio]

Thats true, they have powerful bonuses but they dont connect too well between each other.
I guess the way you would play them is in the same way you would play a late game focused civ with religion intertwined.
- Plant one or 2 holy sites as soon as possible to guarantee your religion.
- Settle as much as you can before heading out to the sea. Have 1 or 2 cities on coast and build 2 galleys. Take them out exploring together, in case theres coastal barb camps with quadriremes.
- If you can reach another continent (most likely by sea) and theres usable land, halt whatever you are doing in your 2-3 main cities, and work on a couple settlers. Make sure, if you have a close neighbor in your continent, to work on your relations, and plant some military units in/around the closest city to their lands, to deter possible invasions. If for whatever reason you cant avoid being declared war, your exploration will have to wait a bit until you intimidate your neighbor enough or eliminate them.
- Save your gold for monuments, especially for your first cities, to kickstart a good civics tree progress.
- Also you dont need a holy site in every city, even if you want to win a religious victory. As long as it allows you to convert your cities and fight other civs with your debater apostles, you are good. Perhaps build one extra holy site in those cities very close to other civs with a religion, just so that you can buy the apostle there, or guard it in the holy site (bonus points for moving moksha to where religious fights are occurring). I find that the easiest/most cost effective way to convert my cities is to wait behind the bushes with a debater apostle. When a civ sends missionaries or apostles your way, you intercept and kill them, and poof, extra 250 pressure for surrounding cities. Make sure you take good care of your 1 charge debaters, and all will be fine.

So for example, for cities on the new continent, Put a harbor if you have a spot for at least, a +3, OR a campus if there is reef/mountain for a +2/+3. Buy/build the lighthouse/library and then depending on what you have around, you build the holy site, or build the district that you didnt build when settling. Use ancestrall hall and Hic Sunt Dracones dedication as soon as you can, and whatever dedication benefits most for your empire up to that point. Considering you have focused on religion as Spain, you have a good faith economy, exodus of the evangelists is an easy way to guarantee a golden age. If you already are at a golden age before Hic Sunt Dracones, you might want to pick monumentality to buy discounted settlers and builders with gold or faith to speed up your expansion or developing your cities.

What I usually do when I want to colonize the world in a water heavy map, is have half a dozen (or more) settlers ready before I get Hic Sunt dracones golden age dedication, and once I pick it, plant the settlers (with the +2 extra build for builders card slotted), and suddenly you have a really solid foothold of 4 pop cities and 5 charge builders for chopping/improving your lands. 6 if you found a moment to built Pyramids. That speeds things up a lot. Once the cities are planted you can swap the +2 builder charge card for the growth/production cards on another continent and go from there. If you use religious colonization every city you found will start with your religion in place so thats 4 followers more per city founded. And the same with these, bring a debater to protect/ convert surrounding cities if they come to convert you (AI loves targetting low pop cities for conversion).

I hope I was clear enough, I hope it helps

PD: Oh and dont lose your sleep over armadas, you wont be able to make much use of them anyway unless you play a REALLY water heavy map. Most of the time your melee naval units will be used just to fight barbarians. AI rarely settles heavily by the coast.

Thank you very much for the tips! they will be a quite useful!

I must admit I was abusing holy sites in almost every city, because I really love the religious burials belief. So I just needed to put a religious district and I had all the tiles to spam the missions!
But I will follow your tips, that was making me lag seriously on culture and Traders.

But at the end, I will just stick with germany and England when playing agaisnt my friends.

Spain do not worth it, other civs can do the same but better!
I really like them, something funny playing an underdog (except for India, I find them quite boring) but I will use them agaisnt AI.

 

[Basajaun]

Thank you very much for the tips! they will be a quite useful!

I must admit I was abusing holy sites in almost every city, because I really love the religious burials belief. So I just needed to put a religious district and I had all the tiles to spam the missions!
But I will follow your tips, that was making me lag seriously on culture and Traders.

But at the end, I will just stick with germany and England when playing agaisnt my friends.

Spain do not worth it, other civs can do the same but better!
I really like them, something funny playing an underdog (except for India, I find them quite boring) but I will use them agaisnt AI.

Burial Grounds belief you mean? Play Poland and its automatic (although I think the culture bomb was for the encampment)
I like founding my own religion too, although rarely chase religious victory, so after many games of failing to get the beliefs I wanted, or stumbling upon the same problems you are having, I found that works pretty well. You can use your missionaries to boost Reformed Church civic, or if you were lucky with the promotions your first apostle got, use 2 of his charges, and use it exclusively for defense, eventually you will build a lot of religious pressure inside your lands at very low cost, so you can use the excess faith for other purposes like great people or civilian units in monumentality golden age.

 

[Leucarum]

Hmm... I'm surprised that there's a thread on Spain wih only 2 mentions of conquistadors in it! When stacked with a religious unit they pack a big punch.

But I don't think Spain is an easy civ to play. For me the big problem is that they ideally need to do a lot of things at the same time. Founding a religion is a big deal for Spain, but with no innate advantages to it they have to invest a lot of resources at the start of the game (on higher difficulties.) They also hit their biggest strength at conquistadors so they need to get their science up to make their way to gunpowder, while holy sites compete for good campus sites....

As Spain more than most civs the game feels like you are balancing a lot of competing needs and you really don't have a safety net if you get it wrong.

 

[Ticio]

Burial Grounds belief you mean? Play Poland and its automatic (although I think the culture bomb was for the encampment)
I like founding my own religion too, although rarely chase religious victory, so after many games of failing to get the beliefs I wanted, or stumbling upon the same problems you are having, I found that works pretty well. You can use your missionaries to boost Reformed Church civic, or if you were lucky with the promotions your first apostle got, use 2 of his charges, and use it exclusively for defense, eventually you will build a lot of religious pressure inside your lands at very low cost, so you can use the excess faith for other purposes like great people or civilian units in monumentality golden age.

YES this one! I though it was good sinergy with Spain.
Everytime you make a Religious zone, you had for free the adjacent tiles, so you could work immediatly the missions (at the end, is quite a lot of gold if you purchase them).

The other "must have" was "Choral Music" but now is just impossible to get because of the AI. Even before it was too difficult to get it, Spain is too slow getting a religion so it is always already gone when you manage your religion... but this one was fantastic, as it allowed you to go with religion but still be able to use spanish's civic tree bonuses.

With out them, is quite difficult to unlock missions and armadas on time to be useful.

Hmm... I'm surprised that there's a thread on Spain wih only 2 mentions of conquistadors in it! When stacked with a religious unit they pack a big punch.

Yes, but that one of my concern. Apart of being complicated to survive until having conquistadors, is difficult to have them in time to be game changing (I'm still a regular player at best, maybe good ones have no problems). And if you manage to get them, that means that you are loosing your bonus on trade routes, and in missions and missions.

But even so, I don't think conquistadors compensate the problems or synergies between spanish bonuses.
For example, germany is very strong without Uboats, or england without the "Seadogs" (without saying that the redcoats are quite strong!), but it seems, as I read the forum, that if you play with Spain you need to get conquistador and play conquest.

So the other bonuses have no so much sense because they do not allow you anything but conquest (and without saying conquistador is just an unique unit, not a "main" mechanic for spain that shapes is style) and i find it quite disapointing as Spain as quite interesnting ideas behind

At the end is just "spam conquistadors" civ... but that is not funny...

 

[Leucarum]

Well ultimately any civ can win with any strategy, but if you are asking about Spain's specific bonuses I do think they really shine most at conquistadors.

Spain has a nice synergy with religious victory since their conquistadors automatically convert cities. These can become bases on far away lands to instantly start spreading your religion and it means you can do a hybrid religion and conquest game. Personally I find this style a lot more fun than a standard religious game. Missions also synergize with conquest as you'll likely be taking cities on a different continent. But there's always a tension in this strategy since you need to expend a lot of effort on a religion early as you have no specific bonuses towards getting one....

 

[enKage]

The real thing is that Spain DOES NOT need own religion. Founder beliefs are weak anyway and why to waste 1200+ faith on apostles to fully develop it / fight theological combat if not heading religious victory? Better use it for settlers.
Just choose the best one that spreads to you. Invite choral music to your land if you focus on faith districts or jesuit education if you focus on faith from missions and faith pantheon and use bonus charge for inquisitors to manage religion you want to get +4 strength vs specific civ.

Conquistadors work with any religious unit, not necessairly your founded religion.

Intercontinental routes are not so bad, +1food/hammer works early game, so better to start near the border, but it also has bonus gold for trading with other civs. IMO Spain is a civ strongly tied for international trade routes and +6 gold is usually better early game than Mansa's routes and often equal mid and late game

Early armadas at least give era score

IMO Spain is very good domination civ, good science civ and pretty solid one for DV.
As long as you ignore founding own religion