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[NFP] I really hope New Frontier isn’t the Final Frontier

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by acluewithout, Oct 19, 2020.

  1. acluewithout

    acluewithout Deity

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    New Frontier has been a bit of an adventure.

    After Gathering Storm, it seemed like Firaxis was maybe heading towards a Third Expansion. To me, it certainly seemed like the game and expansions was built with hooks for that, eg expanded tech tree, various unit gaps, loyalty / governors / governments that could be expanded on, missing favourite Civs.

    But then came a lot of waiting and then, after that, New Frontier. Right for the start FXS said NFP wasn’t an expansion, and that’s really proven to be the case. Most everything that’s been added so far - and this isn’t a criticism, just an observation - has been very peripheral or b-roll / DVD extras sorts of content, e.g. extreme game modes or prior play test versions of mechanics, balance changes but nine that really rework or expand mechanics, alternate and casual Multi-player modes. I mean, I love all this new stuff, some of it is really fun, but it’s also all super disposable versus the replay-ability of the base game.

    Indeed, what I’ve found amazing is how studiously it’s really avoided adding any of the sort content you’d expect from a Third Expansion other than Civs and a couple of new districts - no filling unit gaps, no equivalent to ideologies or ideological pressure, no future tech, no expanding religion or world congress, no corporations (although maybe we’ll see that in the Alt Resources Mode, whatever that is).

    It also feels a bit like what we’re getting with NFP is all stuff that requires art time, play test QC/QA time and great ideas, but not lots of actual sleeves rolled up developer time. It also all seems very focused around Anton, with Ed being very silent (other than tweets about board games).

    As I’ve said before, NFP feels very much like Rise n Fall in many ways. A project lead by Anton, that had lots of great ideas, but sort of needed another iteration (ie Gathering Storm, lead by Ed), to really pull it all together. I really hope there’s something after NFP - be it another season pass, a Gathering Storm type expansion focused on the end game, or some combination of the two - that brings everything together.

    Thoughts?
     
  2. kaspergm

    kaspergm Deity

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    Well, I've said it before, but since you ask: I think the very nature of the NFP project dooms it to be a failure. The idea of small individual "game modes" that can be turned on and off individually and at will necessitates that any new game element introduced this way can't be strongly interlinked with the others or with the core game. As such, the NFP elements can only be superficial, like icing on the cake, which does not necessarily rule out that they can be good and fun (although so far, most of them haven't been, or they have been horribly balanced), but which prohibits any in-deapth addition to the game.

    Personally, I see NFP as the final death knell of Civ6. It has long been a game that didn't match up to the potential it started out with, and this development path has just cemented this fact. If one wants an innovative, fun and in-depth expansion of Civ6, I can only recommend people to look into the City Lights mod. It's still not perfect, and I hope there will be lots of balancing on that still to come, but the core concept is so much more fun, interesting and engaging than anything NFP has offered so far.
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2020
  3. Pistol90

    Pistol90 Warlord

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    Until I see Portugal, Austria and one more native American Civ ---- I am hoping too.
     
  4. Gedemon

    Gedemon Modder Moderator

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    +1

    And about City Of Lights, I've not tested it, but when I've seen it, I thought that it was rare to see a mod making a great use of civ6 graphical modding capabilities while also being thought outside the box and still looking well integrated into the game.

    I'll have to test it one day, and believe me, there are not a lot of mods out there that could make me start a new game of civ6...
     
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  5. Abaxial

    Abaxial King

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    "not lots of actual sleeves rolled up developer time" - this is exactly it. Self-indulgent fooling around rather than anything that might involve real work. How does reskinning two leaders improve the game when there are real issues to be fixed?
     
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  6. Pistol90

    Pistol90 Warlord

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    I am also not hoping for anything worthy game-mechanic related in future Civ official content ... only new Civs, and some thing for modders to change and somehow use later. After this latest Dramatic ages (which is nothing new, just changed some numbers in Rise and Fall) mod, hope for good new mechanich in Civ 6 are gone. There arent going to be any, they wont even (as it looks like) implement those which already exist (like plague, or those nice green mountains in this new Pirate scenario) into base game.
     
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  7. Archon_Wing

    Archon_Wing Vote for me or die

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    I would actually compare it to the Vanilla DLC set for Civ 6-- overpriced and rife with power creep with little actual content. Well Indonesia/Khmer are good design I guess. Nubia and Macedon much less, with massive passive bonuses to stuff you're going to do anyways. Persia and Australia are kinda like that too but at least it's a bit more involved.

    And they actually put the Vikings scenario as its own DLC! Until everything got rolled into the platinum version, I advised against getting them at all.



    If we look at main expansion (RF/GS) civs, you generally have to put thought to use the civs' potential. Well, pretend Korea isn't there.

    But hey, Steam Sale soon.
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2020
  8. acluewithout

    acluewithout Deity

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    Well, I guess my (forlorn) hope is that the reason NFP is so light is because FXS are actually working on more substantive content in the background, i.e. developer resources are instead being spent on something like another expansion or expansion lite, and game modes are designed to be flexible enough to fit with new mechanics introduced in the future.

    Indeed, game modes might have been introduced with a view to later expansions, because it would allow FXS to mix things up between actual new mechanics and optional content.

    If FXS are working on something else, that might explain why we haven’t seen Ed for a while. It might also explain the lack of some stuff in NFP, like a few more base game units and Civs like Portugal or Austria given these could easily have been dropped into NFP (although they could also still turn up in NFP, which would sink that theory).

    But, I’m not really holding out huge hopes (forlorn or otherwise). FXS could just as easily be working on some new property rather than more content for Civ 6.

    Overall, I really do like NFP, but it all feels like it’s been introduced one expansion too early.
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2020
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  9. pokiehl

    pokiehl Emperor

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    Of course this game is not beyond criticism, but when you incorrectly exaggerate (no leaders are "reskins") or bring childish ad hominems into the mix or bafflingly ascribe nefarious motives to the developers (who are real people with real feelings and real lives), you lose all hope of convincing others of your message.

    Perhaps you should reflect on the OP who calmly leveled thoughtful criticism against the game without insulting people.
     
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  10. Mahi

    Mahi Prince

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    I was so confused when NFP was announced. I couldn't spot anything that would add value to the game I was playing.
     
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  11. Apocrypha

    Apocrypha Chieftain

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    As someone who doesn't have a PC and has only played Civ 6 since it released on console, I can't help but think of things from the perspective of a newer player and console owner.

    I have enjoyed the game immensely and have bought it all from vanilla thru NFP and haven't lost steam yet (aided by a solid rotation of games). This forum obviously seems more populated by PC players, and I imagine the full player base is as well, but I always find myself wondering how much impact console sales do/don't have on the direction of the game
     
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  12. Stilgar08

    Stilgar08 Emperor

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    All very negative reviews of the NFP content here. Not very surprising but I am quite sure that is not a majority opinion but an fanatics opinion. And I disagree (well, to some extent).
    I would have rather had a real third expansion but I like to have SS on and shuffle trees... With a bit more of polish those addition can become gems (icing on the cake).
    Power crawl to me doesn't feel to be too harsh to be honest. It's like those discussions about deity: the game is too easy but I can't beat deity. The power crawl is immense but I reroll excess bad start. Kind of paradox (no pun intended)...
    I would love the op to be right but I fear there won't be a deepdive into the undoubtedly plentiful flaws Civ6 has...
     
  13. _hero_

    _hero_ King

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    For all the negativity some have towards Civ 6 the fact remains that it has set sales records for the franchise. Concurrent users on steam has been up noticeably since NFP started. All the data suggests that Civ 6 is popular and NFP has been a success. People expecting this to be a failure which causes a course correction for the franchise will be wildly disappointed when they get more of the same in the future.
     
  14. acluewithout

    acluewithout Deity

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    I mostly don’t get the negativity about NFP, and certainly wasn’t looking to criticise it in my OP.

    The game modes need more polish. But beyond that, NFP is all really solid ideas and really good content. Even stuff like Red Death and Pirates are good additions even if people aren’t that into MP, because it’s stuff like that which makes the game feel full or complete overall, and it helps bring in new players and or maybe gives people a way to recharge before diving back into the proper game.

    The fact the game modes are sort of “light” is fine by me. Again, they need a bit of polish, but having options to tweak the game - even is just cosmetic ways - just helps with longevity. Basically, I think the game is better with NFP, even if NFP hasn’t addressed stuff I wanted to see in the game.

    I really can’t comment on the value proposition. Compared to other similar games and to Civ 6 itself, I think NFP maybe doesn’t have as much “bang for its buck” as previous expansions etc. But for me, the overall value proposition is still pretty good, but then the cost just isn’t a big deal for me either way.

    My point is more just the observation that NFP really doesn’t have anything like the content you’d expect it a proper third expansion (other than the two new districts, and ignoring Civs). On the one hand, it’s quite frustrating, because the game feels like it’s not “done”, and while NFP is fun it’s not really helping that problem. But on the other hand, the fact NFP really seems to deliberately avoid the sort of stuff one might have expected from a third expansion makes me wonder if something more is planned, or at least FXS wanted to keep the door open for more substantial content.

    But as I said, sadly I don’t have high hopes.
     
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  15. Scaramanga

    Scaramanga Brickhead

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    For a game that has a seemingly endless number of random generation and roll outcomes I think it’s far from being a final frontier even with standard rules.
     
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  16. 8housesofelixir

    8housesofelixir King

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    I personally enjoy a lot of the gamemodes and I think new civs are interesting to play. Still, a lot of game mechanics (re)introduced in NFP, as well as many existing mechanisms, definitely need a revisit and polish, as many still seems underdeveloped.

    In @acluewithout's words: the game feels like it’s not done, and it need something extra that "brings everything together."

    On the other hand, I don't know if the devs are willing to alter many core mechanisms after went this deep (4 yrs) into a development cycle.
    - They did alter the Amenities which resulted badly.
    - Some of the polish can be done in the form of patches during the NFP season pass, but a patch every month (that's not a long interval) probably means not many fundamental changes will be done.
    - Important mechanisms such as World Congress probably need a complete overhaul, but it is a core mechanism of a DLC, not in the base game, so less likely to be tweaked.

    Overall, a lot changes we the fanatics people hope to see is very likely worth another full-fledged DLC, but I sincerely don't know if FXS want to do a "finishing touch" DLC (like what they did with Brave New World, which basically made Civ5 a "complete" game) as of now.
     
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  17. bengalryan9

    bengalryan9 King

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    I think the best solution is for them to start focusing on the next Civ while giving the mod community everything they want/need and allowing them to "finish" Civ6 in the meantime. Firaxis can't work on Civ6 forever and we know the mod community is more than capable of getting it to an amazing spot if they have the tools to do.
     
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  18. Time Tested

    Time Tested Chieftain

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    Basically this. I came from Civ IV and bought the game after Gathering Storm came out, knowing the history of the game getting better after full expansions. I have about 300 hours on the game now and am enjoying it. Re NFP, it was pretty obvious this was not going to be an expansion, but more so a subscription to additional "stuff" -- like civs, wonders, etc -- that wouldn't impact the general structure of the game, and so I skipped out on it. Personally, these things don't appeal to me.

    I would still love to see another expansion that greatly enhances diplomacy. There are a lot of things that I recall doing in Civ IV that I would really appreciate doing in this game - like bribing civs to go to war or embargo trade with another civ, or push them to switch governments. This would serve to make peaceful games more interesting.

    Of course, I would also like to see a credible military threat from the AI in the mid to late game, but I'm pretty sure this will never happen. It's pretty frustrating to sit next to an AI with a way more powerful military and still know that they will either never declare war or bumble their offensive even if they do. I still recall surprise DoW's late game in Civ IV where I would potentially have to restart because I was so heavily outclassed.
     
  19. Wielki Hegemon

    Wielki Hegemon King

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    Most people do not dislike NFP content. They dislike a fact that this is not the content they are expecting. ;)
     
  20. _hero_

    _hero_ King

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    Well, I think you need to ask what it feels is missing though. If you stack Civ 6 up against Civ 5 or 4 side by side, you'll find that Civ 6 has more of just about everything. More wonders, more civs, more buildings, an extra era. Most of the things that exist in all 3 of those games also have more to them in Civ 6. Religion, for instance, is a whole system in Civ 6. In previous civ games, it was just there in the background. Culture victory is more involved than it was in previous games too. Maybe there are a few things that existed in previous games that could be brought back but I'm not sure if they'll make the game feel complete. Will Vassals fix it for you? Corporations? Is the feeling more to do with things missing or with things in the game needing to be improved?
     
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