[NFP] I really hope New Frontier isn’t the Final Frontier

[criZp]

I'm sorry, but they don't TAKE your money. You say this word as if they're thieves.

Yeah but I obviously mean that we do a trade, they take the money and I take the game, there's nothing to have gratitude for just like nobody feel they owe the cashier anything after they went to buy bread and milk.

 

[The Civs 6]

I can't believe after 40+ years video gamers can't get over the idea of critique as a form of engagement with the medium that they love. I can watch Transformers in theater and rip it up, with glee, and not regret having paid the price of entry into that theater. Criticism, even outside of the context of so-called dialogue with the devs, is a part of engagement with any form of art, recreation or entertainment.

 

[Ondolindë]

Didn’t Anton give a little talk on this and promised something exciting near the end of NF?

In reality, this, published before NFP was announced, is what opens the door for speculation into other meaty stuff being worked on presently. If NFP was one of the exciting projects out of several, what are the others?

 

[8housesofelixir]

In reality, this, published before NFP was announced, is what opens the door for speculation into other meaty stuff being worked on presently. If NFP was one of the exciting projects out of several, what are the others?

If it is not about NFP this tweet sounds like they are working on a Civ6 version of Beyond Earth or something similar.

 

[_hero_]

If it is not about NFP this tweet sounds like they are working on a Civ6 version of Beyond Earth or something similar.

Yeah I would say the attached screenshot is meant as a hint. Why else include it?

 

[UWHabs]

It's an analogy. Civ 3 added a lot of new ideas to Civ 2, but it didn't feel totally well thought through. Then Soren Johnson took what Firaxis had learned from those ideas, what worked and what didn't, and basically restarted the franchise with 4, which is a genuinely great game.

Similarly, I think 6 has a lot of great ideas, but I think it's time to step back and give the franchise a bit of a restart while thinking through what worked and what didn't. Clean things up a bit. Come out with 7 being a great game out of the box with simple, tight, and thoughtful mechanics.

I think in a lot of ways, 6 is that next step from 5, although it didn't quite go far enough. 5 was a fairly vast departure from 4 and before - hex maps, unit stacking, city-states, etc... were a leap there with some troubles in 5, but they refined a lot of that for civ 6. I do think 6 can also be the stepping point for the next version too - adding in the unstacking of cities into various districts was a great change IMO, and with a full version to understand more about the balance aspects, I'm hopeful that 7 whenever it comes will end up as another leap forward.

 

[acluewithout]

I think 6 has a lot of great ideas, but I think it's time to step back and give the franchise a bit of a restart while thinking through what worked and what didn't. Clean things up a bit. Come out with 7 being a great game out of the box with simple, tight, and thoughtful mechanics.

I do think 6 can also be the stepping point for the next version too - adding in the unstacking of cities into various districts was a great change IMO, and with a full version to understand more about the balance aspects, I'm hopeful that 7 whenever it comes will end up as another leap forward.

This is probably where I part company a bit.

I really feel that most of the existing Civ 6 mechanics are basically spot on the way they are. I can’t see another version of Civ doing a better job with 1UPT (which, by the way, I love), governments and policies, tech and civics, districts and buildings, spies, city states, loyalty etc. Indeed, even stuff like Religion and World Congress feel basically right to me as implemented.

Sure, there’s some balance issues here or there which I think need to be addressed via some patches. And there’s a few places where I’d like to see FXS just expand things out a little (eg for Religion, I’d like to see a few more Religious Units and return of Reformation Beliefs). And the AI could always be better. But basically I think all of the existing mechanics are rock solid.

Instead, my chief criticism of Civ 6 (beyond a tweak here or a unit or option there) is that some key mechanics from previous versions (mostly relating to the end game) seem to be missing, with the result that the back half of the game just feels unfinished.

Given that, there’s really no way I would move to something like Civ 7. I’m not going to buy another version of Civ if Firaxis can’t finish the last one. I can’t see how Civ 7 would meaningfully iterate on Civ 6 - I think it would really need to take the game in an entirely different direction, which would be cool and all but really isn’t something I’m looking for.

If Firaxis aren’t going to sort of take Civ 6 that “last step”, like they did with Civ 5 and BNW, then that’s fine but I can’t see myself sticking with 4X beyond Civ 6. Humankind and Old World both look fine, but I suspect they will have the same incomplete feel as Civ 6 does (moreso, really) given they are made by small studios, and so far neither actually seems to add anything really game changing to the Civ 6 formula. As I said, I won’t move to Civ 7 (although might go back to Civ 4 and 5 which do seem more complete). More likely, I’ll just double down on EU4 which, at this point, is a really solidly put together game.

I find it deeply odd that, post Gathering Storm, FXS hasn’t really continued developing the core game, and instead is focusing on this sort of parallel content (albeit the parallel content is cool and all). Of course, my hope is that something with more substance is planned after Civ 6. But my worry is that Civ 6’s ambitions - enormous ambitions that they are - will outstrip FXS’s ability to deliver. It didn’t see, that way post Gathering Storm, which really rocked as an expansion, but the direction of travel with NFP does give me concern.

Anyway. What, three more DLC? Guess we’ll see where they go and what happens after that.

 

[The Civs 6]

I think in a lot of ways, 6 is that next step from 5, although it didn't quite go far enough. 5 was a fairly vast departure from 4 and before - hex maps, unit stacking, city-states, etc... were a leap there with some troubles in 5, but they refined a lot of that for civ 6. I do think 6 can also be the stepping point for the next version too - adding in the unstacking of cities into various districts was a great change IMO, and with a full version to understand more about the balance aspects, I'm hopeful that 7 whenever it comes will end up as another leap forward.

First of all, props on being a Habs fan if I read your username correctly.

My take on this is that 5 is like the anti-Civ, the commentary on Civ in the sense that it is the only Civ game where you are actually building a civilization as opposed to doing uncivilized things like bashing your neighbors' heads in. It's civ on civ so to speak.

This is probably where I part company a bit.

I really feel that most of the existing Civ 6 mechanics are basically spot on the way they are. I can’t see another version of Civ doing a better job with 1UPT (which, by the way, I love), governments and policies, tech and civics, districts and buildings, spies, city states, loyalty etc. Indeed, even stuff like Religion and World Congress feel basically right to me as implemented.

Sure, there’s some balance issues here or there which I think need to be addressed via some patches. And there’s a few places where I’d like to see FXS just expand things out a little (eg for Religion, I’d like to see a few more Religious Units and return of Reformation Beliefs). And the AI could always be better. But basically I think all of the existing mechanics are rock solid.

Instead, my chief criticism of Civ 6 (beyond a tweak here or a unit or option there) is that some key mechanics from previous versions (mostly relating to the end game) seem to be missing, with the result that the back half of the game just feels unfinished.

Given that, there’s really no way I would move to something like Civ 7. I’m not going to buy another version of Civ if Firaxis can’t finish the last one. I can’t see how Civ 7 would meaningfully iterate on Civ 6 - I think it would really need to take the game in an entirely different direction, which would be cool and all but really isn’t something I’m looking for.

If Firaxis aren’t going to sort of take Civ 6 that “last step”, like they did with Civ 5 and BNW, then that’s fine but I can’t see myself sticking with 4X beyond Civ 6. Humankind and Old World both look fine, but I suspect they will have the same incomplete feel as Civ 6 does (moreso, really) given they are made by small studios, and so far neither actually seems to add anything really game changing to the Civ 6 formula. As I said, I won’t move to Civ 7 (although might go back to Civ 4 and 5 which do seem more complete). More likely, I’ll just double down on EU4 which, at this point, is a really solidly put together game.

I find it deeply odd that, post Gathering Storm, FXS hasn’t really continued developing the core game, and instead is focusing on this sort of parallel content (albeit the parallel content is cool and all). Of course, my hope is that something with more substance is planned after Civ 6. But my worry is that Civ 6’s ambitions - enormous ambitions that they are - will outstrip FXS’s ability to deliver. It didn’t see, that way post Gathering Storm, which really rocked as an expansion, but the direction of travel with NFP does give me concern.

Anyway. What, three more DLC? Guess we’ll see where they go and what happens after that.

To me that's a separate question - do you have faith that Firaxis can make another Civ iteration worth my time, competing against the best games of the past and whatever the future may offer? I dunno about Final Fantasy, but in any media franchise when I hear that I am about to consume the Seventh of something I'm going to be skeptical about the product that I am getting.

I do echo your concern about the lack of interest in dealing with the core gameplay. I thought diplomatic district and the rework of city states was going to be a really good thing for the game. And it hasn't been bad, but all it turned out to be was a fix for one glaring gameplay balance issue (meet 2 science city states first and it might as well be GG pre-patch). I question the value of a district slot for a diplomatic district at all. But all of this was canceled out, to me, by adding the insanely broken work ethic. And the messed up thing is that it isn't the kind of broken accessible to everyone, but it is broken for a select few civs. And then they add bull moose teddy in the patch that was supposed to be about rough rider Teddy.

Like was America even bad? Did they need to up its power further just so we could see Roosevelt in a stupid looking cowboy costume?

I guess if they make a Civ game, I would really like to see them do something very different with the district system. I just can't suspend my disbelief to think that building a 100 x 100 km culture-y or sciencey place has anything to do with anything that happened in the real world.

 

[Civinator]

It's an analogy. Civ 3 added a lot of new ideas to Civ 2, but it didn't feel totally well thought through. Then Soren Johnson took what Firaxis had learned from those ideas, what worked and what didn't, and basically restarted the franchise with 4, which is a genuinely great game.

Similarly, I think 6 has a lot of great ideas, but I think it's time to step back and give the franchise a bit of a restart while thinking through what worked and what didn't. Clean things up a bit. Come out with 7 being a great game out of the box with simple, tight, and thoughtful mechanics.

The Civs 6, thank you very much for your answer.

I agree, that the skillful analysis of Civ 3 by Soren Johnson, written in the Civ IV manual (pages 159ff in the German Civ IV edition), was very helpful for Civ IV (but also for my inofficial Civ 3 expansion CCM2.50). I hope Firaxis will do such a skillful analysis before starting work with Civ 7, not only viewing Civ IV-Civ VI, but covering the complete Civ series and this time putting together the best parts of the complete Civ series (Civ I - Civ VI). Simple, tight, and thoughtful mechanics and a better graphical presentation of the game, getting rid of the distortions caused by the table top presentation. It would be great, if the many thousands of wonderful Civ 3 units, that could be easily updated to a hex-tile-capability, could be used as an alternative for the ugly unit symbols in the game.

As far as I remember, Ed Beach´s start into the Civ series was with Civ 3.

 

[RealHuhn]

A few more late game features like corporations and ideology are definitely missing. Climate change and the World Congress just aren't impactful enough in comparison. World Congress needs proper balancing as well. I don't care about 80% of the resolutions but that should be relatively easy to fix with a patch.

But speaking of impactful, NFP additions like Secret Societies and Dramatic Ages is actually what I'm looking for the most. New game mechanics which significantly change my build orders and strategies without overhauling the entire game.
As soon as I feel like I play CIV6 on autopilot without the need to use my creativity, I usually just stop playing. During NFP this hasn't really happened yet because there's a lot of interesting things to try. I only finish games on really cool maps though because again, there's something missing in late game.
Who knows, we might see another game mode which adds an impactful element to later eras, similar to Secret Societies. We still have 5-6 months of content and patches ahead of us. I'm still curious.

 

[8housesofelixir]

A few more late game features like corporations and ideology are definitely missing. ......Who knows, we might see another game mode which adds an impactful element to later eras, similar to Secret Societies. We still have 5-6 months of content and patches ahead of us. I'm still curious.

The "Alternative Economy" gamemode leaks have some code related to "corporations." Maybe that will be the final return of corporations after not showing up in V or VI.

And all these make me thinking that if there will be an ideology gamemode for spicing up later eras in the future NFP updates.
(Although all the future gamemodes don't require having R&F or GS, which makes an ideology gamemode less likely - I personally cannot image an ideology system that does not interact with loyalty pressure or World Congress.)

 

[acluewithout]

NFP additions like Secret Societies and Dramatic Ages is actually what I'm looking for the most.

There is a separate issue that, so far, the game modes haven’t really clicked. They all seem to need a bit of balancing and tweaking.

I’m not really playing the game modes as they’re currently balanced etc. I think my views about life after NFP would be a bit more sanguine if the game modes were a bit more playable.

The "Alternative Economy" gamemode leaks have some code related to "corporations."

Corporations seem like a good fit for a game mode. Ideologies, however, seem like a terrible fit. I’d really want to see something like Ideology work across multiple mechanics like Governments / Policies / Civics, Governors, Loyalty, Happiness, Trade and Alliances, World Congress etc.

 

[Lord Lakely]

This is very much the end, yeah. The biggest "feature" of the NFP are the new civs, and given that those recycle animations from previously released civilizations, and that the pass's content trickles in over the course of speaks to me that Firaxis has put a small team on its development, and has focused its resources elsewhere.

Civilization 6 is a finished product. Accept it and move on.

 

[Abaxial]

Civilization 6 is almost a finished product. I don't mind if we don't get corporations or ideologies added. I don't mind if radically improving the AI is too difficult. What I do mind is that there are still no fixes to all the minor annoyances, incomplete and broken bits which have been around since long before the NFP. As one of my schoolmasters used to say, "Make sure your foundations are sound before you start building on them".

 

[MrRadar]

Because frankly, I can’t see myself ever buying into a hypothetical Civ 7 if Firaxis haven’t managed to finish Civ 6 first.

My feelings exactly. I don't want any Civ 7 now. I want them to continue to work on Civ 6 and make it a truly great game it still can be.

Civilization 6 is a finished product. Accept it and move on.

Only it does not feel finished. 4 years on it still feels only a half-finished product that haven't really left early access yet. Still plenty of balancing to do, rough edges to polish, loose ends to tie up and improvements to make, including UI improvements.

 

[Chekko]

I sort of want it to be. I like Civ 6 but it would be better with a new game at this point. We have had our nice bunch of extra content and I'm happy. With a new game Firaxis would have more space to build upon ideas they've had laying around over the years. I don't think you can fit that into expansion packs on a Civ game that already has its sort of "core" with districts and all. I think they are looking for a strong competitor to the new Civ-like games and I'm happy to see their heavy guns. Besides, a Civ 7 won't kill Civ 6. Hell even then I think Civ 5 would still stay strong and active.

 

[sonicmyst]

View attachment 572575
In reality, this, published before NFP was announced, is what opens the door for speculation into other meaty stuff being worked on presently. If NFP was one of the exciting projects out of several, what are the others?

I think one of those in "the lab under incubation" was XCOM: Chimera Squad. I feel there is something else but still unannounced.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I don't see any major new mechanics happening at this point. However some things that people want seem to be coming:

"The Alternate Economy Mode": If this does tie into corporations it's something that people have missed greatly.

"Heroes and Epics": There seemed to be leaked info about hero units and epics in a game mode. I don't what specifically what it could entail but maybe epics could help out tourism in the long run and maybe synergize with early game heroes used for exploration or military feats.

Then there is another mystery game mode which could be anyone's guess. The most frequent things I've seen wanted would be either pandemic mode or ideologies but I don't know if any of them would work without the expansions.

 

[Wielki Hegemon]

I always wonder why people are missing corporations that could be anything either really good mechanic or bad and dull. Because it was in previous Civ games? World Congress was too and look what we have caused
But game mode focused on finance, crafting, and heroes, and epics sound interesting.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I always wonder why people are missing corporations that could be anything either really good mechanic or bad and dull. Because it was in previous Civ games? World Congress was too and look what we have caused
But game mode focused on finance, crafting, and heroes, and epics sound interesting.

Nobody here is looking for corporations, or anything, to be a bad or dull mechanic though and to me they do sound interesting as I've never played around with them before.

I don't personally find the World Congress to be as bad as others are claiming it to be either though I don't have any experience with it in previous games either.