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I spotted a large Number of Units near my Boarder...

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by Hakuoh, Mar 28, 2014.

  1. Hakuoh

    Hakuoh Warlord

    Joined:
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    This needs to be fixed.
    In my Current game as Rom i spanwed near Shaka and we had some early wars going on.
    We had Contested Boarders and i had my Units in my Boarder since he attacked me there before. All of the Sudden he comes up with I Spoted your army near my boarder..
    I Said we dont want any harm.

    20 Turns later he declared war on Sweden who was my Ally and i declarded Shaka war on the next turn. And boom here it goes you broke your promise with Shaka...
    Shaka had units near my Boarder 24/7 and i cant punish him for that but he can?
    Srysly Firaxis fix that.
    And how fuking long is this stuipid Promis?
     
  2. danaphanous

    danaphanous religious fanatic

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    never say "just passing through" if you think you might have war sometime soon. The promise is 50 turns and one of the worst diplo hits. I've never seen it wear off. It is kinda broken.
     
  3. Mr. Grieves

    Mr. Grieves Wondermonger

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    It does wear off after 50 turns, but that's way too long.
     
  4. Callonia

    Callonia Deity

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    That's why when I see alot of suspicious units walking around telling me to mind my own business so I just immediately dow them if I'm strong enough to kill them all and collect free mad goldz from dead enemy units full honor policy ftw.

    That way I don't get dinged by that bs.
     
  5. General Tso

    General Tso Panzer General

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    I usually either reload the previous turn and move my units back or declare war. They are the only real alternatives.
     
  6. Sharples

    Sharples Prince

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    Not gonna be fixed. Though if it did I would suggest 25 turns instead of 50 turns for it to wear off. Turns increase as game speed goes up, e.g Quick, Standard, ect.
     
  7. Mr. Grieves

    Mr. Grieves Wondermonger

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    I'd say make it the same length of a peace treaty.
     
  8. Doktor Vic Tim

    Doktor Vic Tim King

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    That always annoys me, but I guess it's a way to make "sneak DoW's" a little bit harder, or else it would be too easy to roll any AI with a cheap attack like that.

    The AI's kind of stupid at war anyway, so if you see a lot of military units at your borders (OT: I always get irked at the boarder typo) get some military units for defensive purposes and you're most likely to be fine.
     
  9. Redaxe

    Redaxe Emperor

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    This is a tough choice but think of it as the AI - in this case Shaka deceives you into backing down militarily to his threat.
    But you DoWd him later so diplomatically you end up with egg on your face & your loss of reputation is not just in backstabbing but also in honour & managing your interciv relations. Realistically you'll be seen as a poor leader who is appeasing and indecisive.

    As people above say if you're provoked by an AI just declare war, the diplomatic penalty for this is minor so long as you don't capture cities.
     
  10. shaglio

    shaglio The Prince of Dorkness

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    The 3 best solutions to this would be:

    1) lessen the penalty for breaking the promise.
    2) decrease the # of turns that the promise lasts.
    3) implement a Cassus Belli system (so that, when you did DOW Shaka for attacking Gustavus, your breaking the promise would be justified).
     
  11. NASAROG

    NASAROG Prince

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    I wish we had an option to say the same to the A.I. Every penalty that we are subjected to the A.I. should be as well. I want to be able to make idle threats as well.
     
  12. phillipwyllie

    phillipwyllie Wannabe Deity

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    There's a mod on the steam workshop called(I forget) that allows you do many things including asking the AI to move it's troops away from your borders.
     
  13. Memoryjar

    Memoryjar Emperor

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    It was in vanilla or civ IV. Or maybe in CiV III where you can walk into border freely.
     
  14. mrwho

    mrwho Prince

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    So what, if you suspect war might occur in the next 50 turns, you should just declare war right there and then? You've only got two options: declare war or say your units are passing through. If you don't want a war, you're sort of forced into saying the latter.
     
  15. boghog

    boghog Warlord

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    This has been discussed many times before and I'm going to try and defend the unpopular position and say this system is justified. And here is why:
    Diplomacy between player and AI is alway asymmetrical. You can send spies and find out what an AI is planning - it can't. This message: "Put your cards on the table. Do you plan for war or do you want peace?" is its way of spying, of forcing you into something of a commitment. If you don't make your plans known honestly then you suffer a little penalty.
    • "But plans change" I hear you say. Sure, you have the freedom to change your mind or react to new circumstances - but there should be a cost to that -> diplo hit
    • "The penalty is too severe, it lasts too long" you might say. Well, I think it should be/do. Otherwise there is no incentive to stay true to your word and thus the information gained by the AI from your declaration of intent is worthless.
    The only thing I feel is broken is that the AI doesn't prepare for this move. Before it sends this message und thereby forces the player's hand (in many cases) to attack, it should be in a position to deal with that attack otherwise asking the question is detrimental to its own interests.
     
  16. beetle

    beetle Deity

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    Which Shaka did, at least in part, because of your promise! IMHO, you should just suck it up or reload.

    Why did you not have a Defensive Pact with Sweden? Especially once Shaka popped that question, or after you saw his troop movements?

    I respectfully disagree about 1 & 2; 3 would interesting, but would require a major overhaul of diplomacy.

    FWIW, I agree with all your points. Thank you for articulating well the contrary position!

    Maybe off-topic, but can anyone provide insight as to why the length of peace treaties is so much shorter than everything else? This seems more unbalanced to me than this promise being 50 turns. Human warmongers would hate it, to be sure, but really it is kind of an exploit to be able to re-DOW so quickly. The AI won’t re-DOW that fast unless bribed (again, by a human player).
     
  17. shaglio

    shaglio The Prince of Dorkness

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    Maybe add a 3rd option besides "declare war" and "Our troops are just passing through." Something like, "I not currently planning to attack, but if you misbehave, I'll have no choice but to change my mind."

    Interestingly enough, he chose to say that his troops were "just passing through," but they weren't "passing through" anything. They were sitting stationary in his own territory. But, that's just semantics.
     
  18. beetle

    beetle Deity

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    Fair point about the semantics.

    Again, I respectfully disagree. Right now it is an interesting choice between two suboptimal options. You would replace that with a boring safe non-decision? There are already too many pop-up dialogs that have no effect!
     
  19. Hakan-i Cihan

    Hakan-i Cihan Emperor

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    My suggestion would be a 3rd option which is opting for a non-attack treaty for the duration of a peace treaty or longer. It should be either that it can not be broken or that breaking it will be penalized severely. Benefit of this would be that it holds also for the AI.
     
  20. victorpras

    victorpras Chieftain

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    Well now that you know you shouldn't break promise, either reload and learn from your mistake, or play along with it. If you already have a strong, self-sustaining empire, you probably won't need any allies anyway.

    And I know it is somewhat unfair that you can't ask the AI about their army marching to your border. But do you actually care about the diplomatic hit that AI might take? I honestly do not, I only care about my own diplomatic hit.

    Oh, and one suggestion: I found out that the best way to ask AI to move their troops from your border is by bribing him to DoW someone, or have someone else DoW him.
     

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