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I think I just found the most overpowered Unrestricted Leaders combo

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by The Almighty dF, Feb 9, 2009.

  1. bestbrian

    bestbrian Just this guy, ya know?

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    Lincoln is a powerful leader with the two most potent traits in the game, IMHO. Combine him with any Civ and it's going to be a nasty combination. Heck, the only thing that nerfs him is that the Americans are a poor civ with a UU and UB that come too late - they have powerful leaders, however.
     
  2. Willem

    Willem Deity

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    Right. I knew that, honestly I did. :D

    I always build an Academy first then settle one. That's a fairly powerful combination. More so than the odd Priest in a city.

    You have a knack for stating the obvious. As far as I'm concerned the main thing Great Priests are good for is building a Shrine and getting that first Golden Age, with maybe the odd tech after that if I happen to get one by accident. Once I get those two things though, it's time to shut down the Priests and focus on more important specialists. And I disagree with Great Merchants being weak early in the game. Getting several thousand gold for a trade mission can really help out when it comes time to upgrade your troops. And they also provide a good chunk of gold when settled too, far more than a Priest. Or you can still pop a tech right until the late game. They're far more versatile than Great Priests.
     
  3. Ian Kognitow

    Ian Kognitow Deserter

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    Far more=1:gold:/pt. Even if you want to increase that by 50% off of marketplace and grocer (leaving out bank for now since the point is primarily early game), even after 200 turns, you're left with an extra 300 gold. What is that going to get you? About 1 musket upgrade to rifle and 1 treb to cannon? And that would additionally be at the expense of the Prophet's 2:hammers:, which is more useful in the early game than 1 additional :food:, particularly considering that either Gprophet or Gmerchant would typically be settled in a financial center, which are often riverside and get lousy production until levees and universal suffrage.
    I'm not saying at all that Great Merchants are bad, but to say that they are "far more" versatile than Prophets, particularly in an early-game context, seems rather overstated.
     
  4. bhavv

    bhavv Glorious World Dictator

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    Great Prophet spam only really works for egyptians on lower difficulty levels (I find it impossible over monarch, and really hard on Prince and Monarch), but it works brilliantly. For any other civ it is pointless, it just works with egyptians because of the two extra priests per city.

    For it to work, you need to get both Stonehenge and Oracle in one city, preferably whichever city founds a religion, and Pyramids in another during the ancient era, and then top off the Prophet farm with, National Epic Angor Wat and Spiral Minaret, and any other optional Great Priest wonders (Chicken Itza is always nice to have). Later on you run Mercantalism and Statue of Liberty and basically run a super economy off your priests. It sucks after all the religious wonders go obsolete, but normally you can win by then with culture anyway. But this is too difficult to do at higher difficulty levels and you need to have a map with 3 great city locations. You just add the Great Priests to your cities once your shrines are built, and along with normal priests from obelisks plus representation from the Pyramids, you end up with an epic early game economy.

    I never thought about using any other leaders for a priest economy game then Ramases as the cheap Temples help you get culture points faster hence religious and industrious seem like the best ones, plus no anarchy and being able to switch civics and religion whenever you like or the AI demands it is awesome and helps you maintain good relations with everyone. The only reds I have are for refusing to stop trading or helping during war.

    I only enjoy going for cultural wins, I find conquest boring. If I cant get a culture win then I try for diplo or space.

    I try to make one city with Stonehenge / Oracle / Chicken Itza / Angkor Wat, Spiral Minaret with the National Epic,

    Second city with Pyramids and Hanging Gardens (You will actually keep on getting any Great Engineers at the Prophet farm, but you may pick up one or two from here)

    Third city with Great Library, University of Sankore and Oxford Uni, then top it up with Versailles, Statue of Lib and Wall Street, this one is Idealy placed on a river, flood plain river with a cottage spam is the best for this.
    Then you basically have two super cities with an occasional Great Engineer coming out to help the wonder spam.

    I will try it with an IND / CHM leader for the extra happiness from obelisks. But unless you are playing the egyptians, it doesnt work - I tried doing it with the dutch on an archipelago map, but obviously it isnt as good here as a great merchant farm with GLH and Colossus, and with the French I focus on the artistic wonders.

    Willem Van Orange on an archipelago map with GLH / Colosus / Versailes / Statue of Lib / Eifell Tower / Wall Street plus Corporations is the exact opposite of Great Prophet farm - Great Prophets are powerful at the start of the game and get you great production, but at this stage with the Dutch you would be focussing on sending out Galleys and settlers instead and relying on GLH and water tiles to cover the expense, plus the great merchant farm. Your cities will be a great deal weaker and develop slower then the Egyptians with Angkor Wat and Great priests, but in the modern era you will be filthy rich with Dykes providing much more gold and production then the priests do.

    So basically, while the religious wonders are in effect, The egyptians can have the most powerful early economy. But after they go obsolete, the Dutch are then better of with Dykes. And if your playing Louis or Qin Shi Huang using the art wonders and Great artist farms, you should have already won by culture by now.
    Those are my three favorite ways of playing the game.
     
  5. Ian Kognitow

    Ian Kognitow Deserter

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    I've routinely been able to get them both on Prince/Monarch games with Industrial leaders (probably my three favourite in the game are Louis, Ramesses, and Roosevelt), and have been able to do it with a fair number of others as well. The catch is that you pretty much need to commit to fully chopping any forests in the capital BFC. And don't be afraid to whip the last few turns of those wonders to make sure it isn't snatched away. Also, it's worthwhile to build a couple warriors before workers in order to better scout out the area, hopefully locating stone or marble to secure with the first settler. In that case, it can be quite easy with Ind. civ.

    While it's true that one should try to get them both in one city--the capital--it doesn't necessarily matter about getting them in a holy city since Oracle can be used for CoL/Confucianism. Besides, in the case of Ramesses, while he is spiritual, he doesn't start with Mysticism so he pretty much has no chance of Hinduism/Buddhism, and if playing for the Stonehenge/Oracle combo, one should ignore monotheism to prioritize bronze working (chops), masonry (potential quarries), mysticism-->priesthood (the actual wonders), and writing (to open CoL for Oracle slingshot). Even as the Incas, which if I'm not forgetting is the only Ind. civ to start with mysticism, I have often gone straight for bronze working specifically to start chopping early wonders (and/or 2nd worker-1st settler) as soon as possible with the expectation of founding confucianism.

    That said, I have tended recently to convolute this strategy by actually going for Great Wall before either Stonehenge or Oracle. Obviously if stone is around it's much easier but I'll still usually go with the Wall than Stonehenge if forced to choose between them (Oracle is still primary goal). Early wonderspam is naturally much easier to accomplish if you're able to completely ignore barbs.

    As a further note, assuming you've been able to accomplish that, it's not that hard to convert the capital's GP production towards Great Scientists via Great Library (which at that point can be sped along by found marble, more distant trees in your expanded-via-wonders borders, whip, and even golden age). The scientist points generated by the library in addition to the 2 free specialists, supported by 1 or 2 of your own should quickly outweigh the few GPP generated by the prophet-generating wonders alone. In any case, in a vast majority of my games, the capital (especially after chopping everything else down) will still have the most developed cottages/commerce around the time a first GS might spawn, making it the default location for academy (and ultimately Oxford). And since confucian holy city likely went to your 2nd or 3rd city, that would presumably end up being financial center.
     
  6. bhavv

    bhavv Glorious World Dictator

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    Yea I always chop and whip, but often get beaten to the oracle on a normal game of Monarch. The best way to play it is a custom game with no other IND leaders and cheat in some marble and stone.

    Going to try it with De Gaule of Egypt soon, you lose the Religious, but get +2 happiness per city, but then I cant freely switch to Vassalage / Theocracy for a few turns of Longbow whipping, abusing civic changes with religious is very powerful. Building wonders? Switch to organised religion. Building troops? Free switch to vassalage / theocracy. Also, the cheap temples help with happiness, its not as immediate as CHM, but once you start temple spamming it becomes easy for culture wins. I normally get Judaism, Confusianism, Taoism and Islam in every game, always beaten to hinduism on a Monarch.

    One problem I have is forgetting to change my civics, I build the Pyramids then forget to change to representation, and and my last game I was building my wonders never remembering to change back to organised religion.

    I make too many litte, but expensive mistakes hence I always struggle on monarch.

    My favorite leaders are Rameses, Qin Shi Huang and Louis.

    Its like Protective which is only usefull when it super powers your Chu ko nu UU, Priest economy is only usefull for egyptians. I dont enjoy playing Religious or Protective on any other leader.

    I also never use spies. I tried them for defense and counter espionage, but only after an AI civ starts hitting me with them, and I find steal tech is always too expensive.
     
  7. PieceOfMind

    PieceOfMind Drill IV Defender Retired Moderator

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    Protective only useful if you super power Cho Ko Nus? Ok fair enough, if that's all you can produce from the trait's several benefits.

    That's strange because apart from perhaps tech trades, stealing techs can easily be and usually is the most efficient way to obtain techs. From the mid game on, it starts to become and eventually becomes easier to earn esp points than beakers.

    But then, if you haven't yet recognised the use of Protective leaders you probably haven't dabbled far in the espionage side of things much either.

    For spies stealing techs, there are several things that greatly reduce the cost including keeping the spy stationary for 5 turns, having open borders, having some of your culture in the city, sharing the same religion or having the shrine (I think).
     
  8. Ian Kognitow

    Ian Kognitow Deserter

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    Naturally, since the computer is always changing your scientists to spies.;)
     
  9. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    Mirthradir just did it on immortal with Arabia in the most recent LHC (lonely hearts club - isolated start) game. As for me...I went the culture route in that one.

    The game is on the first page of strategy and tips subforum, for any that are interested.
     
  10. bhavv

    bhavv Glorious World Dictator

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    It can work for any leader, but I dont it is as usefull without the free priests from the obelisks.

    Though I havnt ever played as Arabia so I wouldnt know, I should try the LHC game.
     
  11. Antilogic

    Antilogic --

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    You do not know how aggravating that is for me. Well, maybe you do, as does any one else that wants a great scientist.
     
  12. PieceOfMind

    PieceOfMind Drill IV Defender Retired Moderator

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    Correct me if I'm wrong but if you have at least one scientist forced as a specialist, it will usually fill up on scientists before it starts assigning spies. Does this work for you?

    The problem is, I don't think specialists can be forced if you don't use some form of citizen automation, so you have to make a small sacrifice.
     
  13. Antilogic

    Antilogic --

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    I'm not sure. I tend to assign scientists, but I forget to check every time the city levels up in population to make sure the new guy is a scientist. I'll double-check the next time the issue comes up (I just finished a game, haven't decided who I will play next).
     
  14. pi-r8

    pi-r8 Luddite

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    So I'm trying this out right now, and I gotta say I like it a lot. I think the best way to use it is to just produce 2 or 3 GP from the obelisks, and then switch to scientists once you get libraries. Also, charismatic goes great with war chariots (or any mounted units really) so you can easily conquer a holy city.
     
  15. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    Well, Egypt is probably #1 and Arabia #2 since they get to run 2 priests off their libraries.
     
  16. sydhe

    sydhe King of Kongs

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    Darius of the Dutch is very powerful, too. You get financial and organized to pay for your big empire, East Indiamen to colonize everywhere, and dikes on all your coasts. Devastating on maps with lots of coastline. Obviously not recommended on a Great Plains scenario.
     
  17. GGitchell

    GGitchell Chieftain

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    For conquest what about Alexander of Rome.
    With him your praets would get a 10% str bonus and you could crank out them faster. Plus if you had barracks they'd be unstoppable.
     
  18. Antilogic

    Antilogic --

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    Aggressive + Rome has been done to death. Although I like the idea of stacking the Philosophical trait with the Roman UB.
     
  19. bestbrian

    bestbrian Just this guy, ya know?

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    I'd prefer Lincoln for this, but I consider CHA a top three trait and AGG a bottom three. PHI + Forum would be neat, though.
     
  20. Antilogic

    Antilogic --

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    Aggressive really gets the short end of the stick around here...it makes my middle tier.

    I agree on Charismatic, though. It's one of my favorites.
     

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