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I think I know why having good relationships with the AI is hard...

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by CrimsonEdge, Oct 31, 2016.

  1. CrimsonEdge

    CrimsonEdge Warlord

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    They can't do math.

     
    cooldude1128 likes this.
  2. dexters

    dexters Gods & Emperors Supporter

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    I 100% agree. The tooltips isn't helpful. There's likely a hidden agenda effect at work that we don't see.

    Generally, I find the AIs right now behave too much like free agents. They like you when then feel like it, and none of the diplomatic modifiers that sort of stabilize relationships have made it over.
    No Friend of my friend; Denounced by/denounced same enemy; etc.

    The 2nd part is, the agenda/hidden agenda, while a good idea, doesn't work in practice as is because you end up with everyone hating each other. I think it needs to be reworked into something that factors into the diplo/relationship modifier in a meaningful way, but more of a grand strategy modifier only. So it doesn't get in the way of the wheeling and dealing diplomatic game.
     
  3. criZp

    criZp Emperor

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    >have a friendly meeting
    >even send a delegation
    >bad first impression

    well done, AI folks
     
  4. Esperr

    Esperr King

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    Its not clear in the UI, but those numbers are per turn. So if youv had the -1 per turn going on for a while, it will take time before the plus modifiers over take it. This is mentioned no where AFAIK. Yes its still dumb.
     
    Elhoim likes this.
  5. CrimsonEdge

    CrimsonEdge Warlord

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    The only two I can think of that might cause this would be Paranoid or Darwinist... but come on, that strong?
     
  6. CrimsonEdge

    CrimsonEdge Warlord

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    This was within the first 15 turns of the game. I'm on turn 50 and I'm still unfriendly.
     
  7. Esperr

    Esperr King

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    Then its the hidden stuff thats killing you, or like every other UI tooltip, its not displaying properly.
     
  8. HF22

    HF22 Warlord

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    I am not convinced by the per turn idea. Has anyone actually proved it yet?

    From my testing it looks like one thing which might be happening is that friendly needs a higher positive value than you would think (ie 0 is unfriendly, not neutral, etc).
     
  9. Chueli

    Chueli Chieftain

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    I think +4 is simply a rather small value.
     
  10. Plus Ultra

    Plus Ultra Conquistador

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    Not really.

    I've been playing around with the system, and my results are mostly consistent with the "per turn theory". Still, hard to reach a conclusion without diving in the code, which is out of my field of expertise.
     
    HF22 likes this.
  11. Matte979

    Matte979 Jedi Master

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    Its per turn. Note that its also seems relationship is also capped at some level if you don't have enough plus to move it over, it wont go down but it also wont go up. This "resting" relationship seems to be affected by difficulty.

    Also relations does not mean anything if the AI thinks your weak and close to him especially in the early game. He will attack you if he see an opportunity.

    I am hoping with get some more tooltips in this screen to explain some of this correctly.
     
  12. Ravenwild

    Ravenwild Chieftain

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    The problem is the definately the "friend of my friend/the enemy of my enemy is my friend" mechanics are missing. Every positive mod is for that 1 civ. The global nature of the warmonger penalty then makes it so everyone just hates you and the negative is so large you can't overcome it your few options for a positive modifier. The "I hate this guy and so do you" mechanics
    of CIV 5 kept this is check a bit.

    If it is a per turn mechanic, this is extremely bad. You will take a big hit for not fulfilling their agenda by turn 25 and then that just compounds every turn. The agenda should ramp up slowly. Also, they shouldn't be the sole defining factor if a Civ likes you or not as it is right now.

    The Causus Belli system is pointless as implemented, its just basically will the other civs hate me or really hate me.

    Honestly, the diplomacy system is really hurting my enjoyment of the game. I like Civ because you can be a master statesman, not just a general. If I wanted a pure wargame, I'd play Total War.
     
  13. esoba

    esoba Warlord

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    Can't wait for that diplomacy mod that was in civ5 where you could see all the hard numbers and inter-relationships. Although for that to matter the friend of a friend and enemy of my enemy diplomacy thing needs to be figured out. And If they give numbers, why in the same heck aren't all the numbers given. And I can say with certainty that when I trigger a positive or negative agenda it does show, except with much higher numbers (e.g. -24).
     
  14. UncivilizedGuy

    UncivilizedGuy The Village Idiot

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    All that would do is confirm that your situation is hopeless.
     
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  15. rjg85

    rjg85 Chieftain

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    They need to balance it so that random hidden agendas don't conflict with main agendas.

    In one of my games my large empire bordered Trajan (Rome). His agenda means he likes large empires, but his hidden agenda, Paranoid, meant he feared large empires. :undecide:

    He didn't know what to do. In the end he practically self combusted and catapulted all of his units off a cliff.
     
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  16. Cymsdale

    Cymsdale Prince

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    What is the real goal in getting the other civs to be BFFs you anyway? There's no diplomacy victory in the game. Oh, you're annoyed that I'm not following some arbitrary agenda you set for me? Whatever dude, go sulk in the corner then. And I'm going to settle and move my troops wherever I wish, so quit your *****ing.
     
  17. UncivilizedGuy

    UncivilizedGuy The Village Idiot

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    Can you imagine how challenging a diplomacy victory would be?
     
  18. RedRover57

    RedRover57 Emperor

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    One of the biggest issues seems to be that the AI hate each other. I haven't had a game yet where there was even one AI friendly with another. They will often joint declare war, but that's about the extent of their cooperation with each other. No research agreements among themselves, etc. This means that even if by some miracle you can manage to become friendly with one AI (it has actually happened to me in a couple of games when that AI's agenda and hidden agenda somehow magically was aligned with my strategy) you will be hated by all the rest of the AI just by association. Hopefully the developers will work on trying to improve diplomacy soon, because currently domination victory is the only option that doesn't also include tearing your hair out.
     
  19. isau

    isau Deity

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    I've been looking at this a lot with an attempt to mod out the "troops near borders" penalty. There are two lines in the database that seem to control penalties.

    ReductionValue
    InitialValue

    I currently believe ReductionValue is the amount of influence lost per turn, and InitialValue is the immediate hit. But I haven't gotten deep enough into testing to prove this.

    There is also ReductionTurns that I believe is the decay rate of the ReductionValue.

    What I have tested a little is changing the values. The Reduction Value for Troops Near Borders is listed in XML as -2, but in an unmodded game you always get a penalty of -3 as far as I've seen. I wrote a mod that makes ReductionValue and InitialValue both 0. And yet somehow the penalty still shows up in games, as a -1.

    (There's another weird thing with the troops near borders--adding additional requirements to the database doesn't seem to prevent the trigger from firing. Altho it's possible I didn't go about adding the requirements the right way. I tried to make it so the troops near borders thing only triggers when the player is Denounced, which seems more reasonable. But I couldn't get this or any other requirement to function).

    It is also possible I am looking in the wrong place or there are multiple penalties. E.g. one for being near borders and one for inside them. But I haven't had time to be thorough about this yet.
     
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  20. Ryika

    Ryika Lazy Wannabe Artista

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    No, hidden agendas show up as "unknown reason"-modifiers.

    As far as I can tell the current system seems to work like this:
    - Modifiers don't actually resemble your current relationship, instead, there is a hidden relationship value that these modifiers influence.
    - So having higher total positive modifiers than negative modifiers will increase your relationship over time
    - Relationship-statuses other than the neutral one (Denunciation/Friendship) etc. seem to increase or decrease the efficiency of opposite relationship effects (so if a player denounced you but you are gaining points those points are reduced by a certain percentage, however, if he is already losing points, he'll keep losing points at the normal rate)

    That's of course just speculation based on what can be found in the game files, and what seems to match what I'm experiencing in my games. With that in mind though, the tooltips make a lot of sense. The OP should, assuming the modifiers stay like that, be able to get to neutral grounds reasonably quickly.
     

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