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I think I know why having good relationships with the AI is hard...

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by CrimsonEdge, Oct 31, 2016.

  1. Soryn Arkayn

    Soryn Arkayn Prince

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    Actually, if the AI had a hidden agenda negatively (or positively) affecting relations then it would appear on Reason for Current Relationship list as something like "-10 for an unknown reason". So it would appear on the list but the player wouldn't know what it is.

    Regardless, it's true that the AI fails at basic math for the Relations Reasons. In theory, it's great that we can now see the factors that effect relations with the AI civs, but it doesn't work as intended so Firaxis is just making the AI's failings more transparent.
     
  2. CrimsonEdge

    CrimsonEdge Warlord

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    For the first 15 turns of the game? I agree that +4 is a small value by turn 200 but you're looking at building a slinger or scout at this point in the game.

    The point is that... shouldn't a positive number yield a positive, or at least neutral stance?
     
  3. Ryika

    Ryika Lazy Wannabe Artista

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    The initial impression was negative, so you'd expect the Initial Relationship to be a negative one.
    That's how relationships work; it takes time to offset a negative impression.
     
    narmox likes this.
  4. CrimsonEdge

    CrimsonEdge Warlord

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    How can the initial impression be a negative one when there was a friendly meeting? What criteria must one have to have a neutral or positive meeting? We were 15 turns in to the game, I don't see how there can be anything negative about it at all.
     
  5. Ryika

    Ryika Lazy Wannabe Artista

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    I don't know what causes positive or negative first impressions, and I looked for possible reasons in the files a while ago - couldn't find anything. I assume it's just a randomized modifier value, with numbers generally being more negative on higher difficulties (at least that's where I always start of in the negatives).
     
  6. CrimsonEdge

    CrimsonEdge Warlord

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    It could be a difficulty thing! This game was not on Prince. This is good to know, actually.
     
  7. isau

    isau Deity

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    I just wrote a report that lists all of the variables at play in the standard diplomatic system. At least the ones that are accessible to XML/SQL. If you want to see how all the hate/love is calculated, most of it is listed here. (Not included due to length: modifiers due to historical or random agendas.)

    EDIT: Oops, watch out for the values for Near Borders. Those are pulled from a version of the database that has been running a mod, which is why the values are listed as 0 instead of -2 and -1.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Oct 31, 2016
    whyidie likes this.
  8. montalaar

    montalaar Chieftain

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    i would say, that main problem with diplomacy is there is no any reason to be friendly with any rival civ. what are benefits? to have open borders? for give them ability to flood your territory with insane amount of units?
    at any moment most friendly rival can go war on you - bam. one trun from best buddies to war. someone bribe them or anything.

    and. so best relations to any rival civ right now is... war! you dont have to have headaches with their missionaries/apostles, you just eliminate them. you dont afraid they will get great city spot - let them, after some turns just conquer that nice city and so on.
    be friend is meaningless, be at war gives only benefits.
     
  9. CrimsonEdge

    CrimsonEdge Warlord

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    Awesome, thank you man.
     
  10. CrimsonEdge

    CrimsonEdge Warlord

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    War weariness is a pain if you don't have the civics to keep it going. Once you do, though, declaring war and playing defensively makes war weariness almost 0. It's nice.
     
  11. Big J Money

    Big J Money Emperor

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    Ugh, there is no evidence of an "invisible per turn" rating.

    Looking at the XMLs, it actually looks like every turn, there is a random chance that a civ's relation will change to the next level. The more + you have, the more likely it will happen. And Vice-Versa. I believe that meeting someone's primary agenda might also either affect that percentage by a great deal, or it might even act as a requirement (i.e. you can't get friendly without it). But that's not proven, either. I only suspect that because I've noticed faster results both directions when I succeed or failed an agenda.
     
    HF22 likes this.
  12. Ryika

    Ryika Lazy Wannabe Artista

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    How did you come to the conclusion that it's a random chance?

    And if it's a random chance, then what do you think are the Worth/Cost-Modifiers for in the DiplomaticStateActions-Table? Those seem very much like flat costs/bonuses towards a hidden diplomatic value to me.
    And what about the DiplomaticYieldBonus-Column in the DiplomaticStates-table?
     
  13. Big J Money

    Big J Money Emperor

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    I started a new thread with the XML data and some testing but it was ignored. Long story short:

    The biggest evidence was that I kept track of the invisible number. In one case I had a neutral civ get over 101 and he still did not become my friend. Another civ got to some value less than 60 and she became my friend.

    The second biggest evidence is the wording of the names of values in the XML. I'm not at home to look, but if you find my thread the info is in there. Basically it looks like there are thresholds. Once you are past the threshold, you now have a random chance that the civ is allowed to switch. That's how I read it anyway.
     
  14. AppleDumplingHead

    AppleDumplingHead Emperor

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    There are two "hidden modifiers" that don't show up in the diplomacy screen. They are "whether or not the AI sees you as food" and "when your score/development are insurmountable for them to have a chance to compete". In neither of these conditions will the AI befriend you well, unless you do every single thing possible toward his agenda, and even then, if you're food, he might still backstab you if he's the backstabbing kind.

    I have an standard-size emp game as Germany today, just playing around. Grew from an opportune isolated spot and didn't try to crowd my one neighbor on the continent. Now I'm at the upper edge of production/economy/tech competitiveness, I could field a military to wipe out the planet probably 2 or 3 opponents at a time, but they've all been so very cool about everything with their little blue and green happy faces and a couple perturbed orange, I don't have the heart to just thrash them. Almost feel like starting a new one without finishing.

    Emperor difficulty, I think, is the most fun right now. You just have to live through the first 100 turns, then you can pretty much win however you want even with a couple bad mistakes or oversights. Immortal can get a little dicey the first 200 turns, particularly if you've spawned in a spot with weak terrain advantages, but then it turns into the same end-game as emperor. It's all build order, appropriate to circumstance and I like that alot. This is on standard speed. The point of this is that you won't see really good AI diplomacy below these higher difficulties because you have to be somewhat "equals". A human in the Industrial era with 7 cities is not equal to an AI in the renaissance with 3 cities and the AI knows this. It's going to rail against you, it's going to throw you crappy trade deals, it's going to pay each other to fight you, it's going to yell "warmonger!" any chance it gets so you're not gaining the benefit of positive diplomacy while you skate to an easy win.

    That's the way the game should be, diplomacy is a side tool to garner advantages. Every side wants to win, but truly there needs to be a little more code added for AI behavior than attrition.
     
  15. Ravenwild

    Ravenwild Chieftain

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    There are benefits to staying peaceful. The obvious ones are you don't have waste production on army units or pay upkeep on them. For cultural victory, you get bonuses to tourism with open borders and trade routes. Conquered cities are likely to rebel and captured cities don't grow until you declare peace. Science victory requires lots of build queue time so that can stall out because you need a lot of industrial,campus, and commercial districts to complete it in a timely fashion.
     
  16. isau

    isau Deity

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    It's possible but I don't think this is the case. If it is, I have a lot of questions for the AI developers about why they would do it that way. :D

    The best evidence I have for it being metered is the effect of giving someone a gift. You'll often get situations like in the two screenshots below, where the + - modifier diminishes but the leader is visibly happier with you. It's possible that it really is based on thresholds and not a hard number in the background, but I am holding out hope it's not set that way, because that would be extremely exploitable and prone to causing leaders to act schizoid as they leaped from mood to mood based on a random roll. If there's a timer between mood switches, that would mean most of the + - stuff on the screen is meaningless during the period after a mood change, which again I sincerely hope is not the case.


    Spoiler :
    ghandi4.png


    ghandi_friends.png
     
  17. Wintervoid

    Wintervoid Chieftain

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    Mostly I have seen what everyone else has, but there was one game that seemed 'normal'.

    I was playing as Japan on Emperor, and had a large chunk of the continent to myself. I had 5 cities up before I really started to interact with the AI. I was not the world power at the time, but I was respectable. By mid/late game I had 8 cities, 2 that I founded next to AI cities. I had 2 Civilizations that were friendly and wanted to ally (Much smaller then me) 2 that didn't like me and would occasionally denounce me, and the rest would go back and forth.

    I didn't go out of my way to please them, but I did trade luxuries when they asked, and in the end I started to run some trade routes to them for a Cultural victory. My army was always about midline, but I led most the way in Culture and Science. I don't think I ever had a war. I remember some incursions on my north front, but I think that was all Barbs.....but I had shored up the front pretty well to discourage my neighbors.

    Basically, I get the feeling that other Civilizations never like you, they just fear you and pretend to like you. Or maybe the lack of early contact made them hate each other more?
     
  18. isau

    isau Deity

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    BTW here is the table I am still trying to make sense of. This is the DiplomaticStates table. Looking at these columns, it looks to me like support for a hidden diplomatic value, called RelationshipLevel. It's possible these numbers are used in some other way of course.

    It's possible if the thresholds are used, what they actually establish is that the RelationshipLevel can't continue to descend or ascend as unless the threshold is met.

    (I also assume, but didn't prove with experimentation, that DiplomaticYieldBonus affects how much money they're willing to trade you for various things.)

    diplo table.png
     

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