I think it's time to call religion a failure

LesCanadiens

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There seems to be a lot of people on these forums lately that outright attack athiesm. As an atheist, I would like to take this opportunity to defend my beliefs. There are too many reasons why I am an atheist to list in this post, so I will try to go over only the most significant reasons I am an atheist.

1. Validity - This is the most obvious reason. The Christian God can not be proven to be any more valid than Allah, or Budda, or Zues and Hera, or even Santa. A lack of supporting evidence is something all religions share in common.

2. Judgment Day - The Christian God, according to the Bible, is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent. This means that God knew when he made each person exactly what would happen to that person and what that person would do. If god is omnipotent and omniscient it is not possible for a person to do anything at all that he did not directly cause to happen. Most Christians try to blame freewill for the evils people commit, however, freewill and an omnipotent and omniscient god cannot coexist.

3. Child Abuse - Christians think of God as our father in Heaven. Most parents have the burden of deciding how to discipline their children. Would you spank your child? Or ground them? Or would you throw your child into a pit of flames and have him burn for eternity? This is what the Christian God does! No god can be omniscient, omnipotent and benevolent and still send its beloved children to any version of Hell.

4. Faith - The word "faith" when applied to religion is being grossly misused. Webster defines faith as, "firm belief in something for which there is no proof" Most people do not think of this as a bad think, but just look at what faith has done to mankind! Faith is the nemesis of logic. Where there is religious faith, there can not be logic. The two are quite completely mutually exclusive. In every endeavor other than religion, if a person accepts things as being true with no quality evidence to support such beliefs, then the person is considered foolish and even contemptible by society. When acting exactly the same way regarding religion, the person is considered as perfectly normal. There is in faith an immunity to reality. Faith is the destroyer of science and progress. Faith in gods creates a horrible aversion to change. The status quo is the rule of thumb and the "faithful" conservative Christian's morals are the worn out morals of liberals from forty or so years before him. Yet along he goes dragging his feet. "Why free the slaves? It's in the bible." The faithful Christians were enraged when Ben Franklin invented the lightning rod. "It's a sin" they screamed. "God surely controls the lightning and who are you to interfere?" There was Galileo who was tried by the Catholic Church for sacrilege because he claimed the world was round and that the earth orbited the sun, and not the other way around as the bible says. Christians are at this very minute all across the country attempting to remove evolution from the science books, even though it is established as fact. The list is endless. Religion and science are mutually exclusive. Christian Science is nothing but an oxymoron. Faith is the slaughterer of freedom. Truly the Christians pays due lip service to freedom, but their every endeavor is to control and outlaw it. To pass laws to prohibit sexual preferences in the bedroom of two adults is nothing but pure tyranny. Why do these people care who you're sleeping with? What business is it of there's? The faithful claim that they simply want to live life according to the rules of their god, but they want nothing short of making everyone live by those exact rules. Everywhere you find these faithful people you will see them attempting to control the other people around them. They even have the audacity to claim they are persecuted, simply because people resist them and rail against their bids for totalitarian control. The faithful claim they are patriots, but they resemble old Russian Communism much more closely than capitalism. Faith is the destructor of individuality. Everywhere the faithful are trying to enact their version of God's word into law and force the rest of society to be just like them. Faith is the fountainhead of ignorance. The faithful everywhere cast off logic and science as the temptations of Satan. Any science, theory, or fact which contradicts their religion is perceived to be purely evil. This inevitably leads to the embracing of myths and ignorance and the shunning of rational thinking. Faith is the procreator of intolerance. Faith like nothing else strengthens intolerance and helps it breed and spread. What else would come about from people who claim as divinely inspired a book which espouses slavery, homophobia, murder, infanticide, genocide, racism, rape and kidnapping in the name of a loving god?

5. Prayer - It is conceptually unsound that any omniscient and omnipotent being would need constant flattery from its flawed creations or that it would care in the slightest about the offered opinions and requests of those whose past, present and future are obviously previously set in stone by the omniscient and omnipotent being who created them. They can have no opinion, feeling, or prayer which the omniscient and omnipotent being did not create and intentionally cause to come into being long before he ever even created them.

6. A Perfect God - A perfect god does not make mistakes, nor change his mind. In the tale of Noah's ark, God did both. The idea of an omniscient and perfect god as purported by the bible is conceptually unsound according to the very words of the bible which the Christians claim professes it to be so.

7. God Commits Crimes Against Humanity - Even if I did believe in the Christian God, I would not worship him.

I present the following questions to any Christian reading this post.

1. Why did your god order the slaughter of babies by sword?
(Numbers 31:17, Hosea 13:16, Joshua 6:21, Deuteronomy 2:33, Isaiah 13:9, 13:15, Ezekiel 9:5)

2. Why does your god condone the "cutting open the pregnant women"?
(Hosea 13:16, 2 Kings 15:16)

3. Why does your god condone slavery and beating slaves into a slow death?
(Leviticus 25:44, Exodus 21:20, Ephesians 6:5, Leviticus 25:45-46)

4. Why does your god condone kidnapping and raping virgin girls after slaughtering their families in front of their eyes?
(Numbers 31:17, Isaiah 13:9, 13:15)

5. Why did your loving god kill 42 boys for calling a man "baldhead"?
(2 Kings 2:23)

The usual reply is "you're taking those passages out of context" or "those people sinned against God" and I generally respond with "how do you take genocide, rape, kidnapping, murder, infanticide, and slavery out of context?" and "what sin did the infants commit against your god to make him order his people to "cut open the bellies of the pregnant women"?

I realize that by posting this I will probably be insulted and met with intolerance. Go ahead. I don't mind. Insult me all you want. Just keep in mind that with every insult you post, you make your God look worse. "The Christian god is a three headed monster, cruel, vengeful, and capricious. If one wishes to know more of this raging, three headed beast-like god, one only needs to look at the caliber of people who say they serve him." -Thomas Jefferson
 
why does this keep going on? we just end up saying the same things over and over again. :rolleyes:
 
No kidding sween. Defend your anti-religious message all you want. I dont really care what your reasons are. But keep in mind your post is a flagrant attack on religion which you only posted because you felt the need to insult religion because not everyone agrees with you.

:rolleyes:
 
Originally posted by sween32
why does this keep going on? we just end up saying the same things over and over again. :rolleyes:

It goes on because we all play the game of pretending everything can be rationally examined. The heart of civilization cannot yet and should not be pried open and judged by science. It contains exquisite faith, which few atheists acknowledge, and which religion claims its own.
 
Hmm i agree with his points although i wouldnt be so harsh...
Some mods dont like that here and especially with your other threads in everyones memories..
 
And oh yes, prepare yourself of the arrival of a catholic Jedi.
We all know who we are talking about he?He?;);)
 
Moderation sucks
Yall could learn a thing or two from (DELEATED)
ZERO moderation
Works VERY well

Moderator Action: Then why don't you go post there?

Civfanatics.com works very well WITH moderation, it prevents people from being offended by small minded fools, you know the type, they take things out of context, don't read the passages you quote, and act with a superior air.)

Thunderfall doesn't pay the bills for YOU to boost some other site.

AoA

Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
 
Well science is a failiure and here's my proof.

1) Science is flawed. Remember the theory of the conservation of mass. Well after we discovered radioactivity and radioactive half life that was proven false as mass can be converted to energy. Therfore there's a contradiction in science and its all bogus because one point was proven to be false.

2) science rellies too much on faith. Look at the big bang theory and the theory of relativity. We can't prove it true or not because we can't reach the speed of light. We can only veryify that it works in certain instances there is no way to prove that it works all the time

3) science kills people and takes away their rights. Your wonderful science caused the big craze of positivist schools of criminology. And that lead to the sterilization of mentally ill people in north American throughout the 20th century

4) Science can't explain nearly enough things. Science can't determine anything about the inner workings of the human brain. Science on its own cannot explain what memories are. It can only determine that the cerrebral cortex partially contains memories by electric pulses going through nerurons. That is a very unsatisfactory explanation

5) If humans have compassion and help less fortunate people who can't make it on their own, then we aren't following survival of the fittest and natural selection isn't occuring and we are intentionally dumbing ourselves. So we need to kill off all wierd people. No compassion at all towards anyone. we can only behave in rational scientific ways meaning we must rationally analyze everything. If someones homeless they should either be left to die or placed in a factory to work slave labour as that is most efficient. Compassion has no place in a society were we cannot have faith or believe in things which are not proved.



As you can see, it is quite easy to place blame in the wrong place.
 
LesCanadiens, I would actually bother to read and respond to each and every point on that list - but something tells me that you didn't write that yourself.

As far as I can see your concept of God is wrong altogether.
 
Ironic isnt it that you decree "LETS CALL RELIGION A FAILURE" then tell people they can believe what they want. Contradiction.
 
Originally posted by Furry Spatula

2) science rellies too much on faith. Look at the big bang theory and the theory of relativity. We can't prove it true or not because we can't reach the speed of light. We can only veryify that it works in certain instances there is no way to prove that it works all the time

:goodjob:

Big Bang theory: Inability of physicists to ditch Creation and acknowledge the infinite.

Speed of Light worship: Goes on because some genius used speed of light rather than the less useful but equally valid Speed of Snail as a constant in his equation. Scientists wax ridiculous in their efforts to maintain the holy status of light.
 
Originally posted by LesCanadiens
I present the following questions to any Christian reading this post.

1. Why did your god order the slaughter of babies by sword?
(Numbers 31:17, Hosea 13:16, Joshua 6:21, Deuteronomy 2:33, Isaiah 13:9, 13:15, Ezekiel 9:5)

2. Why does your god condone the "cutting open the pregnant women"?
(Hosea 13:16, 2 Kings 15:16)

3. Why does your god condone slavery and beating slaves into a slow death?
(Leviticus 25:44, Exodus 21:20, Ephesians 6:5, Leviticus 25:45-46)

4. Why does your god condone kidnapping and raping virgin girls after slaughtering their families in front of their eyes?
(Numbers 31:17, Isaiah 13:9, 13:15)

5. Why did your loving god kill 42 boys for calling a man "baldhead"?
(2 Kings 2:23)

(1) Numbers 31:17: The present raid was only against those midianites who were dwelling at this time near the encampment.

Hosea 13:16: Nothing about slaughtering babies or women here.

Joshua 6:21:"that is under the ban": that is doomed to destruction"

Deuteronomy 2:33: They defeated their enemies.

Isaiah 13:9:Its biblical prophecy and not necessarily meant to be taken literally.
13:15:I repeat Its biblical prophecy and not necessarily meant to be taken literally.

Ezekiel 9:5: Ezekiel is pre-eminently the prophet of personal retribution; the innocent inhabitants of Jerusalem are to be spared when the idolatrous are punished. An X: literally the hebrew letter Taw, which had the form of a cross.

(2) Hosea 13:16: I repeat there is nothing about slaughtering babies or women here.

2 Kings 15:16: This is a chronical not a story. It is simply written down that some king killed a bunch of people and it doesnt show any reference to God.

(3) Leviticus 25:44: Leviticus 25:39 "When your countryman becomes so impoverished beside you that he sells you his services, do not make him work as a slave." Nuff said (maybe you should try reading it)

Exodus 21:20: I honestly dont know.

Ephesians 6:5: Paul has a very different outlook. Honestly i dont know because im not an expert.

(4) (Numbers 31:17, Isaiah 13:9, 13:15)

We have gone over this already.

(5) 2 Kings 2:23
This story is preserved for us in scripture to convey a popular understanding of the dignity of the prophet. Told in popular vein, it becomes a caracature, in which neither Elisha nor the bears behave in character.
 
LesCanadiens, you ARE out of line.

And this from a persistent defender of atheism and science like me, who makes cases for both in virtually all threads about this theme.

Just a suggestion, try to be less harsh next time. You said that if people offend you, they make God look bad. Well, when YOU offend people, how do you think it makes atheism look?

Regards :).
 
Originally posted by Furry Spatula
Well science is a failiure and here's my proof.

1) Science is flawed. Remember the theory of the conservation of mass. Well after we discovered radioactivity and radioactive half life that was proven false as mass can be converted to energy. Therfore there's a contradiction in science and its all bogus because one point was proven to be false.

2) science rellies too much on faith. Look at the big bang theory and the theory of relativity. We can't prove it true or not because we can't reach the speed of light. We can only veryify that it works in certain instances there is no way to prove that it works all the time

3) science kills people and takes away their rights. Your wonderful science caused the big craze of positivist schools of criminology. And that lead to the sterilization of mentally ill people in north American throughout the 20th century

4) Science can't explain nearly enough things. Science can't determine anything about the inner workings of the human brain. Science on its own cannot explain what memories are. It can only determine that the cerrebral cortex partially contains memories by electric pulses going through nerurons. That is a very unsatisfactory explanation

5) If humans have compassion and help less fortunate people who can't make it on their own, then we aren't following survival of the fittest and natural selection isn't occuring and we are intentionally dumbing ourselves. So we need to kill off all wierd people. No compassion at all towards anyone. we can only behave in rational scientific ways meaning we must rationally analyze everything. If someones homeless they should either be left to die or placed in a factory to work slave labour as that is most efficient. Compassion has no place in a society were we cannot have faith or believe in things which are not proved.



As you can see, it is quite easy to place blame in the wrong place.

I disagree with each and every point, BUT I'll greet it as a great reply, in the sense of it suceeds in showing exactly what's wrong with LesCanadiens post - that you can't simply take the bad aspects of something and call it a failure.

And because I imagine that such irony was exactly your true intention.

Regards :).
 
Originally posted by Furry Spatula
Well science is a failure and here's my proof.

Lo! The voice of Furry ancient wisdom echoes through the halls of CFC...;)


Originally posted by Furry Spatula
1) Science is flawed. Remember the theory of the conservation of mass. Well after we discovered radioactivity and radioactive half-life that was proven false as mass can be converted to energy. Therefore there's a contradiction in science and it’s all-bogus because one point was proven to be false.

Science is about experimentation and discarding data that is no longer valid, till we come to the final, irrefutable fact...

Religion is about final, unbending faith, intolerant of dissention.

Originally posted by Furry Spatula
2) science relies too much on faith. Look at the big bang theory and the theory of relativity. We can't prove it true or not because we can't reach the speed of light. We can only verify that it works in certain instances there is no way to prove that it works all the time

Religion relies totally on faith...without logic.
How can you prove the existence of bearded entity that created the universe, or any other creation theory?

You can't...the question is too big, the religious faithful and the scientists are all scraping around in the darkness.
I have a feeling that scientific method will prevail before illogical religion will.

Originally posted by Furry Spatula
3) science kills people and takes away their rights. Your wonderful science caused the big craze of positivist schools of criminology. And that lead to the sterilization of mentally ill people in North American throughout the 20th century

Would you want me to repeat the crimes, genocide and outright warfare carried out in the name of religions?
Do not lay the blame at the door of religion or science, they don’t kill people.
Can’t you get the picture? Humans kill humans not ideas.

Originally posted by Furry Spatula
4) Science can't explain nearly enough things. Science can't determine anything about the inner workings of the human brain. Science on its own cannot explain what memories are. It can only determine that the cerebral cortex partially contains memories by electric pulses going through neurons. That is a very unsatisfactory explanation

What can religion explain? All it done was produce stopgap answers for ignorant, ancient people.
Do we need such answers as ‘stone women who are unfaithful’ in this 21st century?
Again it comes down to human failure and stupidity…Please learn this valuable lesson.

Humans are corrupt, the goals of science and religion are both of knowledge,
do not blame these lofty ideals for the human inability to be noble.

Originally posted by Furry Spatula
5) If humans have compassion and help less fortunate people who can't make it on their own, then we aren't following survival of the fittest and natural selection isn't occurring and we are intentionally dumping ourselves. So we need to kill off all weird people. No compassion at all towards anyone. we can only behave in rational scientific ways meaning we must rationally analyse everything. If someone’s homeless they should either be left to die or placed in a factory to work slave labour as that is most efficient. Compassion has no place in a society were we cannot have faith or believe in things which are not proved.

Humans are as fickle as an autumn wind, whether we are faithful to science or a god.
I am a faithless man, and would you judge me? And who would give you a right to?
Your words do not strike me as those of the wise, rather, someone who feels he is on
The receiving end of a cold society, geared against him, solely.

Well, it takes many people to make a world. And when you have experienced the varied
people of the world, you will learn that the twin pillars of faith and fact are easily pliable
by those who are faced with lives meandering paths.

Do not be too enamoured with religion or science, both are tools in the hands of the
Great and powerful, and we are puppets to them if we allow it.

Originally posted by Furry Spatula
As you can see, it is quite easy to place blame in the wrong place.

As you have done, but I hope you will learn otherwise.
There are many shades of grey, not just black and white in the world.
Do not see all people as a great morass of similar minds, there are many variations.

Curt.

PS
I fixed your typos!
 
Originally posted by Furry Spatula
Well science is a failiure and here's my proof.

1) Science is flawed. Remember the theory of the conservation of mass. Well after we discovered radioactivity and radioactive half life that was proven false as mass can be converted to energy. Therfore there's a contradiction in science and its all bogus because one point was proven to be false.
Yes science as gotten things wrong, but it works to root out all that is false, and thats why they changed it to theory of the conservation of energy. Science isn't perfect.

Originally posted by Furry Spatula
2) science rellies too much on faith. Look at the big bang theory and the theory of relativity. We can't prove it true or not because we can't reach the speed of light. We can only veryify that it works in certain instances there is no way to prove that it works all the time..

That's true with everything , Science is about the questioning of all ideas to work oujt what fits best, if something doesn't fit or something fits better then the views of the scientists change
 
Originally posted by Furry Spatula
Well science is a failiure and here's my proof.


1) Science is flawed. Remember the theory of the conservation of mass. Well after we discovered radioactivity and radioactive half life that was proven false as mass can be converted to energy. Therfore there's a contradiction in science and its all bogus because one point was proven to be false.

But science DOESN'T claim to be absolute truth. The process of science itself ALLOWS for revision. The fact that old theories are being changed shows that science is working correctly. Science is a self-correction process. If flaws are found, they are discarded. There is nothing in science that is so sacred that it cannot allow challenging or changing.

Theories (and scientific) laws are the best available explanation for what exists. As new discoveries are made, theories are revised and updated to account for them. Science allows for revision, whereas religion requires faith in an unchanging truth. If science stuck to a single constant dogmatic truth and doesn't allow change despite evidence of opposing explanations, then it rather be like a religion.

2) science rellies too much on faith. Look at the big bang theory and the theory of relativity. We can't prove it true or not because we can't reach the speed of light. We can only veryify that it works in certain instances there is no way to prove that it works all the time

Again, theories are the best available explanation about how the universe works. What do I mean the best? The theory succesfully explains the observations actually made, isn't contradicted, and has the least number of terms possible (Occam's Razor). There's no possible way to prove that a theory works in EVERY POSSIBLE instance in the universe. However, if it explains observations, isn't contradicted, it's the best possible explanation. If you have a better, go ahead, but keep in mind: Big Bang theory and relativity are able to explain what we currently observe in the universe, while God requires bringing in a completely unknown variable. By Occam's Razor, you use as few unknowns as possible.
(If you have 1) 1 + 2 = 3 and 2) 1 + 2 + x = 3, you pick #1, because the x is extraneous).

3) science kills people and takes away their rights. Your wonderful science caused the big craze of positivist schools of criminology. And that lead to the sterilization of mentally ill people in north American throughout the 20th century

And religion lead to the Crusades, Inquisition, persecution of heretics, torture, witch-burnings, forced conversions, Jihad, suicide bombings, bombing abortion clinics, justification of slavery, etc, etc.

4) Science can't explain nearly enough things. Science can't determine anything about the inner workings of the human brain. Science on its own cannot explain what memories are. It can only determine that the cerrebral cortex partially contains memories by electric pulses going through nerurons. That is a very unsatisfactory explanation

Science is based on observation. Religion is based on faith. The explanation is based on observation, and again, is the best available explanation we have based on those observations. If you base it on faith, you have zero observations and zero evidence, and must rely on the power of trust alone.

5) If humans have compassion and help less fortunate people who can't make it on their own, then we aren't following survival of the fittest and natural selection isn't occuring and we are intentionally dumbing ourselves. So we need to kill off all wierd people. No compassion at all towards anyone. we can only behave in rational scientific ways meaning we must rationally analyze everything. If someones homeless they should either be left to die or placed in a factory to work slave labour as that is most efficient. Compassion has no place in a society were we cannot have faith or believe in things which are not proved.

Natural selection has been observed in action. And evolution theory doesn't justify cruelty towards others. It's in our interest as a species to perpetuate our DNA to the next generation to continue as a species. By mutual compassion, and helping one another, we are helping each other to survive. Also, showing compassion is in your interest as an individual as you are likely to receive it back in return. It's much more likely for both you and the population to survive to reproduce if you help each other instead of killing each other.

As for slaves or leaving homeless to die, in the past, religion has been used to justify slavery, because it was condoned in the Bible. And currently, the Catholic church is adamantly trying to stop the use of contraceptives and condoms in Africa even though millions are dying from AIDS and too many children are starving or malnourished because of overpopulation.

And compassion requires no religion. It all boils down to the Golden Rule: Treat others as you would be treated. Many great thinkers came up with this independently, among them Aristotle, Confucius, and yes, Jesus. But notice that Aristotle and Confucius lived before Jesus, showing that religion isn't necessary for compassion.

As you can see, it is quite easy to place blame in the wrong place.

Learn a bit of science before making such claims about it. You seem to have some vague conceptions of what science is, but you fail to understand. You are attempting to judge science using the same criteria as a religion. Science is not a belief, or fact, or absolute truth about the universe. Science is first and foremost a METHOD, in which one makes observations, and then tries to make theories that correspond with them to come up with the best available explanation with how the universe works. As more observations are made, and accuracy and precision increase, we can revise our theories that they better explain what we observe. THAT is science.

Edit: fixed typos and made a few clarifications
 
I don't think it's insulting, just depressing. I will be the first to stand beside you to oppose religions that justify unkind, backward or inhuman attitudes, and to oppose the use of religious prejudices (both pro- and anti-) as a political tool.

However, your tone is a little silly; it's as though there's a need to pass judgement on people for beleiving what they want to beleive, feel the need to beleive or just do beleive to get them through life. Attacking the lousy manifestations of religion is one thing; attacking the idea behind is kind of pointless.

P.S. yeah, I think there's a God. We chat now and again. He appeals to my Irish side, so Our relationship is very complicated. :D I have my reasons.

Originally posted by LesCanadiens
Webster defines faith as, "firm belief in something for which there is no proof" Most people do not think of this as a bad think, but just look at what faith has done to mankind! Faith is the nemesis of logic. Where there is religious faith, there can not be logic.

And I hate to be corny on CFC; maybe it's because I was almost dead last week. But you could substitute "love" for "faith" in that paragraph and it would run perfectly, yet we still bang our head against that wall, too.

Rationalism has it's value in everyday life. But if irrationalism makes like a tiny bit more human, what's the harm?

R.III
 
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