part 2
being selfish:
As a lawyer, I have studied quite a lot of politics and a little philosophy. At a certain point, in the very beginning, I mean, in the premises of both those disciplines, they are alike. They base themselves in one principle, that is the idea that no man is superior to others.
See, humanity is a social species. We have the need to live in groups, specially, because we needed to overcome our individual weakness (we are not particularly fast or particularly strong in nature). The proximity generated conflict, as there is just so much material goods available to an always growing number of needs. In consequence, the life in-group turned very difficult, as each and everyone tried to impose their will over the will of their group mates.
Very soon, experience demonstrated what kind of behavior was beneficial to the maintenance of the groups, and what kind worked in dismantling them. No one need to be genius to see the destructive power of killing, stealing and raping, or the benefits of working in teams and sharing. It is as Francis Bacon said: Good is, what repeated
ad infinitum, would turn the world into heaven. Bad is, what repeated equally, would turn it into hell.
The beneficial behaviors, once identified, were exhaustively repeated until they became the very famous law of the land, a inherent set of rules that are instinctively followed by the members of the community, disregard of what they believe.
It was very well described by Thommas Hobbes in The Leviathan, when he came up with the idea that the collectiveness has the power of a monster; joining it grants us its mighty protection, but in order to enjoy the protection, we have to pay the price, that is to give up our inherent prerogative of doing anything and accept rules of behavior.
So there you have it. The reason why, even without God, people wont go for simply taking what they want from others is, in immediate terms, because they would suffer legal consequences; in mediate terms, because it would lead to the collapse of society, re-instituting the law of the stronger, in which no man, no matter how smart and strong, is safe from treachery and abuse; and, philosophically, because the behavior pattern is already printed, at least in general terms, in our instinctive impulses.
And this also goes as for why sustaining the elderly and/or the sick; because that humanitarian feeling is not a prerogative of deities that they concede as they please, but in fact a human peculiarity developed by social experience.
And the same goes for the love for your neighbours.
being suicidal:
This just dont make any sense.
First of all, if I imagine people that is depressed, certainly one that believes that by killing himself he will reach a better world is far more tempted than one that thinks that will fall in oblivion.
Second, for most of humanity, even religious people, there is a sense of accomplishment that exists within this life. Id say that people, who do not have the slightest worry about this realm, but just for his reward in heaven, are actually quite a few. And for those who do not believe that there is another world, this is the one and only chance to be happy; to make the world a better place. To leave a legacy that that will enhance the humanity, that will still be here, benefiting people after they go, and, in this humanitarian sense, live forever.
Nonetheless, rightous1, rest assured, I also can respect your position. We both preach love and tolerance, even if we get there from different paths. That is, by far, the most important thing.
Originally posted by Mr Spice
About your question to righteous about why God needs no creator: Every single world-view ultimately ends up in the paradox of something either emerging from nothing or having existed forever. In atheism, its the laws of nature (that enabled Big Bang) that have either emerged from nothing or existed forever. In Christianity its God. No matter what world-view we put our faith in there is no way around this paradox. We simply have to accept our inability to answer, understand or explain that paradox.
I know I wont be very original in this reply, but this idea carries a logistical problem.
Yes, any attempt to explain the universe will ultimately fail when it tries to describe how the first of all things came to be.
However, thinking that it was God does not fit in logical thinking, because it relies on unnecessarily augmenting the complexity of the system, a behavior that goes against natural processes.
See, the smaller distance between two points is a straight line and fluids will move from the zone with more pressure to the zone with less pressure. We can witness in nature that processes tend to follow the path that demands less effort. Science acknowledge this by enunciating the parsimony principle, more known as The Occan Razor, that dictates that given two scenarios of equal value, the simpler tends to be the true.
This was graphically represented (I think in this very thread) very well, by the idea that 1 + 2 = 3 has far greater chance of being right than 1 + 2 + X = 3. Now, the first one is complete. The second CAN be true (X can be 0, or an enormously complex equation that solves as 0), but it requires a complexity that is not necessary to complete the system.
So, in one hand, you have reality = unreachable mystery of origin; in the other, reality + God = unreachable mystery of origin.
And, to make matters worse, God is superior to reality, being all mighty and perfect. This makes the mystery even more mysterious and unreachable.
So, I think it makes clear how the acceptance of God is a element that multiply unnecessarily the complexity of the system, thus being unacceptable by a logical pattern of thinking.
Originally posted by Mr Spice
Ive always wondered about the biological imperative that you mention since to me it seems to have a very fundamental flaw. The theory tries to answer the question about a deeper meaning, but originates from the view that we are here by chance and consequently there is not deeper meaning at all. Life cant both have no meaning and a meaning at the same time. Atheism and the biological imperative cannot co-exist. Ive always seen the biological imperative more as an observation of one important function of life rather than The True Meaning of life. Its also a bit curious to notice that people who are deeply convinced there is no meaning of life still try very hard to find meaning in the no-meaning, so to speak. (I hope that makes any sense at all.) This is a very big contradiction. Evidently every single human deep inside needs some sort of meaning or purpose. If we are here as a result of chance, this is not only yet another interesting and inexplicable result of chance, but also the biggest irony in universe.
I guess you are taking this wrong. The biological imperative does not signify a meaning to life, let alone a deep meaning.
See, lets assume that when the four first things came to live, one of them had both an instinct of survival and an instinct of reproduction; the next one, just of survival; the next one, just of reproduction; and the last one, none of them.
Obviously, numbers 3 and 4 didnt survive, at the mercy of the iniquities of life, from which it didnt search for defense. Number two probably survived long, but didnt pass its genes to a new generation; just number one succeeded in both.
Thus, that biological instinct is a universal characteristic just because its a necessity to all species in order to guarantee its permanence. Whoever lacked it wouldnt stand a chance of reaching more elaborated evolutionary refinement. It's not impossible that something like that existed, but the chance that it would live and prosper, like species that struggle to live and reproduce, is thin.
However, in itself, it does not mean any more meaning or reason for life than our need to eat, to sleep or to use the toilet.
Originally posted by Mr. Spice
There is another important point as well, that applies mostly to atheists. In my experience, no people talk as much about the very important subject meaning of life as atheists do. I suspect this is a result of atheists being the only ones who have not found any meaning. Its quite interesting to observe how this works. In my experience the typical behavior is to talk and think a lot about religion, but always dismiss it in the way the professor does. When people find out that Im a Christian, they usually want to discuss religion with me. Often its very obvious that they are trying to search for that meaning they secretly want so badly, but dont admit they need. But they are always repelled by the fact that I can offer no hard evidence for God. When it comes to religion (but normally not in other cases) the typical atheist wants undeniable proof before accepting anything else than his own non-provable view. In this way many atheists act the way the professor in that little story talk about God with other atheists and sometimes listen to people who claim to have found God but always dismiss them (often even before the discussion starts). And most atheists never truly search for God themselves.
I think that you are making a small confusion about atheism here. It simply means that we do not believe in God, or deities in general. What does not mean that we dont need or want a meaning to life.
What we will always dismiss is the implication that the meaning of life in inherent and given by God. The view of a humanist is that life has only meaning if human beings grant it.
Originally posted by Perfection
I think that's a major problem with us atheists, although we have a valid philosophical arguement, we shouldn't hold it as the "only reasonable thing and non-belevers can eat my poop." UI'm ashamed at a lot of peopole who outright attack people who believe in god. Sure sometimes a little discussion is fine, but don't belittle people for their beleifs it makes them hate your side even more.
Agreed. I, for one, have nothing against religious people, and also do not regard them as inferior. I know much more religious people than atheists, and, due to simple proportions, I know much more intelligent people that are religious than atheists.
Attacks have no place in debates, and worse of all, take away all the fun in the intellectual digressions.
Regards
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