I want a canadian civ :(

[Ai Shizuka]

the founding fathers (along with some European englightenment thinkers) have changed the entire world's paradigm (for the DRASTICALLY better) with regards to human rights, civil rights, putting religion in it's place, etc etc. You owe a great debt to America.

inferiority complex with America

It's garbage like this that make people dislike the USA (USA, not America - America means some 30 different countries in my book).
NE Italy here, and I can assure you that most of the people over here (myself included) don't give a damn about the US, unless they pull off some ******ed stunt and simply get away without consequences.
I can safely add that most of the western Europeans share this neutral feeling toward your country.


So let's talk about "debts".
You owe a great debt to Italy (mr. Colombo) and Spain (mrs. Isabella).
You owe a great debt to the Natives. An entire continent wiped out for your lebensraum.
You owe a great debt to UK, Netherlands, Ireland, Italy, China, ect. You know, the people who created a country when "Americans" didn't even . .. .. .. .ing exist.
You owe a great debt to all the Afro-Americans who died to get your country up and running.
Can you see where this is going?

Don't even get me started about the whole "civil rights and blabla" thing. The hypocrisy of your logic simply doesn't allow a constructive debate.

So I'm with Lemon here. I don't hate the USA, not a little bit. And I think you have the right to be proud of your country, like everyone else.
But telling people they owe you something, well, that's absurd in the highest degree. And it's not going to improve your reputation across the world.

 

[DigitalBoy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFs5l9K--7M&feature=related

Seriously though, I have nothing against Canada and admit that I don't know much about anything about its history, but it seems to me that it never gets included in Civ games for the reasons some of the previous posters mentioned.

 

[thekaje]

The original poster was just responding to the sense he got (erroneously) that someone disliked America and hence wanted to replace it in the game. Any "patriotic" person would defend his country that way, I think.

Also, I think it's pretty clear that you do give a damn about the USA, given your hyperactive reaction to what was said (lebensraum?).

 

[thekaje]

We just don't run around the world telling everybody else how much better we are.

I'm not sure that Americans do this.

But the over-zealous patriots can stop telling me that I "owe them a debt" anytime they like.

This isn't an example of overzealous patriotism... He was defending his country from attack. Although he's probably a little oversensitive, I think there's been an obvious oversensitivity to American patriotism apparent in this thread as well.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

I'm not sure that Americans do this.

Never looked at off topic then?

 

[Jarlaxle13]

I see no reason why Canadians couldn't be included as a Civ in an expansion pack. Personally I like a wide variance of civs and so the more the better IMO.

In response to the Canadian nationalism thing. It's different for us, the only things we really get riled up about are beer and hockey hence most of the cited examples. Contrast that with Americans that put Canadian flags on their stuff so people in other countries won't treat them like dirt.

I can definitely understand people worldwide wanting "the American dream" but I can also see why they loathe "American politics". By which I mean, the "do what I say or else" attitude that past presidents have taken. I'd suggest incidentally that this is why you can now buy Obama merchandise here. At first glance he appears to be the first rational, non-warmongering president in ages; though time will tell if that changes.

 

[stethnorun]

It's garbage like this that make people dislike the USA (USA, not America - America means some 30 different countries in my book).
NE Italy here, and I can assure you that most of the people over here (myself included) don't give a damn about the US, unless they pull off some ******ed stunt and simply get away without consequences.
I can safely add that most of the western Europeans share this neutral feeling toward your country.


So let's talk about "debts".
You owe a great debt to Italy (mr. Colombo) and Spain (mrs. Isabella).
You owe a great debt to the Natives. An entire continent wiped out for your lebensraum.
You owe a great debt to UK, Netherlands, Ireland, Italy, China, ect. You know, the people who created a country when "Americans" didn't even . .. .. .. .ing exist.
You owe a great debt to all the Afro-Americans who died to get your country up and running.
Can you see where this is going?

Don't even get me started about the whole "civil rights and blabla" thing. The hypocrisy of your logic simply doesn't allow a constructive debate.

So I'm with Lemon here. I don't hate the USA, not a little bit. And I think you have the right to be proud of your country, like everyone else.
But telling people they owe you something, well, that's absurd in the highest degree. And it's not going to improve your reputation across the world.

You're welcome from saving your from Fascism Good one there by the way.

 

[stethnorun]

Oh god, the smell of the American arrogance

Frankly, we own them nothing. They didn't go to war for us. They did go to war for their own sake.


I'm not anti American but such bold sayings are making me giggle a little.


Further I do agree to not include an Canadian civilization. There are far more candidates that makes more sense. I do not see a problem though that the fan comunity makes a Canadian civilization. (dunno who would see a problem there).

Is it really so bold to say that American Enlightenment thinking changed the world? I'll be the first to admit, we have strayed WAAY too far from our founding principles. We are WAY too religious (we didn't start that way) and we are way too concerned with world politics (we didn't used to be).

But the ideas that STARTED our country changed the entire world. THAT is the debt that the world owes to America. That is the debt that Americans owe to their ancestors. Current-day Americans are NOT living up to those ideals. Bush AND Obama are both pissing on those principles, as has every other president since the early 1900s.

I'm not saying America doesn't have it's LARGE problems. All countries do(yes ALL...including Canada). But America is unique because it was the first, and still the best, creator of modern democracy and civil rights in the world. If we aren't careful, we are going to be the last ones to turn the lights out on those ideals as well.

 

[Ignorant Teacher]

You're welcome from saving your from Fascism Good one there by the way.

AFAIK the Italians themselves overthrew and killed Mussolini...


I am Brazilian and we had a military coup here during the 60s which was supported by the American government of the time. The same thing happened in Chile and many other Latin American countries.

The USA are indeed sort of a beacon of democracy, however in certain times of its history it represents the exact opposite of that. Too many times its commitment to free market has been more important than its commitment to democracy and human rights.

Just to be clear, I'm talking about the American government, not about the American people. It makes little sense to make judgements about peoples, I'm sure you'll find crazy bastards in Brazil as well as in the US and you'll find great people in both countries.

 

[Ai Shizuka]

You're welcome from saving your from Fascism Good one there by the way.

Great confirmation of what I was saying.

I was not alive. My father was not alive. Yet you somehow manage to turn it into "WE saved YOU from fascism".
So what if now a random Brit shows up saying "WE created YOUR country"?
Or a Chinese "WE built YOUR entire railroad network"?
Oh yes, it's 60 years ago vs 200. So I owe you something while you don't owe anything to anyone. Who decides where's the "turning point" for history to kick in?

Makes sense? No? Of course it doesn't, because it's . .. .. .. .ing absurd. 2009 to WW2 is like comparing the 800s to the middle age. It's a completely different scenario, different problems, people, ideologies. It's like a different era. But still some americans NOW think the entire world owe them something for WW2.

I have MUCH more respect for the war efforst of UK and France for a number of reasons. But let's not get into this. Definitely the wrong place for a huge ww2 debate.
But at least YOU didn't drop atomic bombs on my country. Do I owe you something?

 

[stethnorun]

AFAIK the Italians themselves overthrew and killed Mussolini...


I am Brazilian and we had a military coup here during the 60s which was supported by the American government of the time. The same thing happened in Chile and many other Latin American countries.

The USA are indeed sort of a beacon of democracy, however in certain times of its history it represents the exact opposite of that. Too many times its commitment to free market has been more important than its commitment to democracy and human rights.

Just to be clear, I'm talking about the American government, not about the American people. It makes little sense to make judgements about peoples, I'm sure you'll find crazy bastards in Brazil as well as in the US and you'll find great people in both countries.

I agree with every point you make except one. The free market does not inherently infringe on democracy OR human rights. As long as the rights of every person are respected (in law), then the free market works perfectly fine. Getting paid high wages to work in a factory is not a right, it's a privilege. Most times, even sweat shops raise the standard of living for the locals of poor nations. Put another way, if the country was so prosperous BEFORE the evil factory showed up, how come so many people signed on? Work for profit, no matter how meager that profit may seem to richer countries, is still better than subsistence farming. As long as the workers are getting paid based on their work, there is nothing wrong with the system. As opposed to the populist form of socialism...which makes EVERYONE poor in an attempt to make everyone "equal".

Anyway...yeah the free market is not the problem...was my main point

 

[stethnorun]

Great confirmation of what I was saying.

I was not alive. My father was not alive. Yet you somehow manage to turn it into "WE saved YOU from fascism".
So what if now a random Brit shows up saying "WE created YOUR country"?
Or a Chinese "WE built YOUR entire railroad network"?
Oh yes, it's 60 years ago vs 200. So I owe you something while you don't owe anything to anyone. Who decides where's the "turning point" for history to kick in?

Makes sense? No? Of course it doesn't, because it's . .. .. .. .ing absurd. 2009 to WW2 is like comparing the 800s to the middle age. It's a completely different scenario, different problems, people, ideologies. It's like a different era. But still some americans NOW think the entire world owe them something for WW2.

I have MUCH more respect for the war efforst of UK and France for a number of reasons. But let's not get into this. Definitely the wrong place for a huge ww2 debate.
But at least YOU didn't drop atomic bombs on my country. Do I owe you something?

You've got some issues dude. Read my post a few posts up. I fully admit that America is far from perfect. But the fact is, we have done more good for the world than bad. The same could be said for many countries, I'm sure. I'm not denying the bad, but I'm also no feeling all guilty from it either. But you are just irrationally anti-American, despite actual history and facts.

 

[Ai Shizuka]

You've got some issues dude. Read my post a few posts up. I fully admit that America is far from perfect. But the fact is, we have done more good for the world than bad. The same could be said for many countries, I'm sure. I'm not denying the bad, but I'm also no feeling all guilty from it either. But you are just irrationally anti-American, despite actual history and facts.

Oh boy, here we are. Seriously, are you for real? You are going WAY beyond my expectations.

Now a challenge. Go find something offensive about your country in my 2 replies.
Actually you don't have to, because you won't find anything.
But somehow I have issues and am an irrational anti-american.
American patriotism at its finest, I guess.

But - and this is an indisputable FACT - you "did more good than bad to the world". Am I talking with a 10 years old?


Now let's go a little step further. Despite my total indifference toward the average americans (and I'm sure the fanatic who sparked this debate doesn't provide an accurate image of your people), you still think I'm a die-hard antiamerican.
So I'm not asking you why I should hate the US.

But I really fail to see the link between "reply to utter absurdity" and "irrational anti-american".
So the real question is: why am I supposed to care about your country in the first place? Why do you think you deserve such big feelings toward your country?
My answer is "utmost arrogance".
But I KNOW the vast majority of your people don't have such skewed beliefs. And this actually IS a fact. So don't worry, you are not spoiling the reputation of your country with your little comedy here.


I'm having a really hard time trying to get my point across, english being not my native language and everything.
So I'm quoting a line of Lemon Merchant:

Some of your more vocal citizens embarrass you with their xenophobia and their "in your face" patriotism.

In this thread YOU and mr."you owe me ten bucks" are the embarassing minority. Minority being the key word here.

 

[ladsud]

All Canadians are drunks. All Italians smell like spice and like to gas Ethiopians to death. Oh and all Europeans are too greedy and materialistic to have more than one child so they are breeding themselves out of existence.

Am I posting correctly in this thread?

 

[civverguy]

Save this for off topic people.
To OP: the Canada mod is found here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=138477

 

[Atranox]

All Canadians are drunks. All Italians smell like spice and like to gas Ethiopians to death. Oh and all Europeans are too greedy and materialistic to have more than one child so they are breeding themselves out of existence.

Am I posting correctly in this thread?

No, you're being far too rational.

In all seriousness, no country owes any other country anything, as far as I'm concerned. How we are today reflects the past events of history. Does the US owe England for creating us as a colony? Do we owe the French for their help in the Revolutionary War effort? Do we owe the Russians for the eastern front in WW2? Does Europe owe us for our aid in WW2? Absolutely not. I think when we all look back at past history, there are undoubtedly times and instances where everybody should be thankful for what other countries may have done. As an American, I'm proud of my country and I'm very patriotic (did someone really say they didn't respect our efforts in WW2?). But I don't expect others to view my country the same way as I do.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

Trailer Park Boys >> everything so 'nuff said.

EDIT: Except Peep Show, that rules also.

 

[thekaje]

Now a challenge. Go find something offensive about your country in my 2 replies.
Actually you don't have to, because you won't find anything.
But somehow I have issues and am an irrational anti-american.
American patriotism at its finest, I guess.

Without even going back over your replies -- "Lebensraum"? Even if the spirit of the expansion was similar, you compared the USA to Nazi Germany... Never really an inoffensive sort of observation.

So the real question is: why am I supposed to care about your country in the first place? Why do you think you deserve such big feelings toward your country?

Uhhh... most powerful country in the world?

You assert your indifference to the USA with such ferocity. You big feisty Italian man, you.

 

[stethnorun]

Without even going back over your replies -- "Lebensraum"? Even if the spirit of the expansion was similar, you compared the USA to Nazi Germany... Never really an inoffensive sort of observation.


Uhhh... most powerful country in the world?

You assert your indifference to the USA with such ferocity. You big feisty Italian man, you.

Hehehe. You took him apart better than I could. Nice.

 

[Powerslave]

This thread is going to get locked soon.

The easiest thing to do, I think, would be to replace the American civ with a Canadian civ. In game, you can do that easily enough, by changing the adjectives. In the XML, you could do a search/replace for 'American' to 'Canadian', and put in your favorite PM as leader. It's actually quite easy to do.

p.s. On behalf of all sane Americans, I'd like to apologize for the loud, arrogant super-patriots who can't keep their mouth shut. We're not all like that.