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I want to beat Immo! (Pacal game, advisors are welcome)

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by enKage, Jul 11, 2013.

  1. enKage

    enKage Follower of Zoamelgustar

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    Hey,

    I haven't stil won on immo, though I made some tries.
    I believe I have nice, though not perfect opening, usually later something starts to get wrong. I believe my main mistakes are usually:
    - poor play with great people
    - still too much unnecessairy buildings
    - hitting enter too quickly :D
    and probabbly more, I cannot realise myself

    It is enough for emperor, I win 3 of every 4 games or so, using standard settings.

    I will start a game here and I believe with Your help I could send Pacal into space.

    Setting:
    Pacal, I chose him because in my opinion he allows so many possible strategies, that I usually don't even know how to play him :D

    Fractal map, standard size, medium sea level, 6AI, normal speed, standard barbs, no huts, events ON.

    I play using BUFFY mod cause I believe everyone has it installed and it allows you to easy run my savegames.

    The starting position was so obvious, that I simply playd 2 turns, settling on the plain hill.


    The start seems so good, that I start to be confused what would be the best way of opening sequences.

    Start
    Spoiler :



    Mutal founded
    Spoiler :




    From this point:
    1) Agriculture was ready in 9 turns, 1 more turn to worker
    2) Khmer scout met (T7?)

    During this time a little exploring:


    First questions:
    1) Next techs? I am confused with such a start, where you can do anything! Which way cwould be the best?
    a) AH, benefits from sheep = 5F pastured sheep, allows early settling northern pig gold site
    b) avoid AH and go straight to BW (early slavery and prereq. for defense)
    c) road and pottery before AH (I could irrigate some FP + cottage instead of working sheep - early benefits from financial trait
    Spoiler :


     

    Attached Files:

  2. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    This would be a more preferred method of posting pics:

    Spoiler :


    there is code you can copy directly from imageshack and paste directly in. It's labeled something like "Forum...."
     
  3. Murky

    Murky Deity

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    If you just want to be able say you beat immortal do this.

    Play Inca.
    Choose a small, tiny or duel map.
    Choose weak AI opponents that don't have the Protective trait.
    Regenerate the map until your settler is on a plains hill and you have a 3 hammer tile to work.
    SIP
    Pump out Quechuas
    Steal workers
    Eliminate the AIs one by one with your Quechuas.
    Keep going till victory.
     
  4. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    ^^^totally disagree. Learn to beat IMM on a regular basis with any leader. It's not that hard.

    Enkage. I'd go BW now and then maybe head to POT. AH could probably be delayed unless you have a plethora of good AH food resources nearby. Holkans will do fine for barb defense.


    edit: Nice quick fix on the pics ;)
     
  5. Murky

    Murky Deity

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    Sure, you can learn that eventually. Just saying if you want the confidence boost then playing Inca on Immortal could help. It's still using the same basic game mechanics as with other leaders. The biggest difference is that you start with your UU. Rome essentially does the same thing only it has to gain the tech/resource to do it. Once it has its UU it's just a matter of producing enough of them and using them to your advantage.
     
  6. Izuul

    Izuul Level 86

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    I would consider settling a city to the east that can become your capitol later. 3E of Mutal would be a nice candidate. The desert hill 1N of that is also a possibility, but tile doesn't have fresh water and there's gonna be a lot of unhealthiness with so many FPs.

    That said, there's a lot of wasteland around you, so claiming some decent land to the west asap could be really important. I'd probably hold off on AH for the moment and go for BW. If you encounter more AH food resources to the west AH might be warranted. If you can skip it though BW > TW > Pottery would be better to get cottages into play.
     
  7. enKage

    enKage Follower of Zoamelgustar

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    ok, I did BW first followed by the wheel and now I am on the beginning of pottery research.

    It is now T33, I met Willem (he was able to settle 3rd city!) coming from NW and found 2nd Khmer city.

    I produced some warriors, not all of them are still alive :D
    There is one barb archer to the east and one to the north of Mutal.
    I am one tun from finishing my first settler.
    Next in queau I believe should be worker followed by settler (2 pop whup) and overflow to worker. I hope it will still be enough time to build fogbusting warriors for northern area.

    I marked possible city locations, unfortunately i need different worker techs to feed them.

    I believe first settler should go between corn and gold. Where should I put the third city?
    Should I stop pottery for the moment and go hunting first (holkans)

    or
    Finish pottery and settle floodplains with my 1st settler and gold/corn with 2nd settler?

    Spoiler :


    or
    should I repeat segment and try to produce settler when Mutal is 3pop town?
    (but it is cheating :p)
     

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  8. Gwynnja

    Gwynnja Deity

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    IMO, the differences between Immortal and Emperor are mostly timing... Everything happens a little quicker: barb nuisances, wonders get built, AI hogs all the land just a little bit faster. If you can beat Emperor on a consistent basis, beating Immortal is merely fine-tuning what you already know. Also, I had to learn not to over expand. Compact, six city empires can still dominate Lib/MT races for Cuir/Cav stomps. Watching Chris's videos help me a lot too.
     
  9. erajah

    erajah Chieftain

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    What a start with such amazing land nearby... 4 gold? That's ridiculous. I played this really quickly for a bit, and here are my thoughts. I don't think it really needs a spoiler tag but just in case:

    Spoiler :

    Stole a warrior from Khmer when he settled his 2nd city, and what does the Immortal AI do when they get workers stolen? Play like a Noble AI :lol:

    Settled my second city 1E of A. This was actually a mistake because I thought Khmer's 2nd city was closer (he settled the same spot in my game). In retrospect I would've done A as well. Third city I settled where G is. Very strong spot and with the gold and FP you can use it as a settler/worker dump for the early game. Fourth city was settled 1S of D. Working pigs whip into monument into hook the copper ASAP. Timing couldn't have been better as I started to need the Axemen :). Not sure why you would want to settle on the gold... seems like such a waste to me. Because of the stolen worker and so much gold you can have a really explosive start. Then went for construction and well... let's just fighting Noble AIs are easy :)


    Good luck with your game!
     
  10. Fippy

    Fippy Micro Junkie Queen

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    For some reason i cannot load your save, but that's Sury there already?
    If so i don't like Wheel + Pottery after BW at all here, and would have teched hunting first for Holkans to annoy him. He's really one of these Civs you do not want close and big, and if he reaches copper you missed your chance.
     
  11. Izuul

    Izuul Level 86

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    Oh yeah i forgot about Hunting. That's definitely good to get early with Pacal for the resourceless spears. Fippy is correct
     
  12. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    ^^^Yeah, seems every time I give "sage" advice to newbies with Pacal I always forget about the Hunting
     
  13. enKage

    enKage Follower of Zoamelgustar

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    Ok, I switched to hunting "just in case archers came"

    Building: settler - warrior - worker - settler (2whip with 27 overflow)
    I will put overflow to worker, that will give me a worker in 2 turns.


    I settled 1E from pointA because I wanted more riverside grassland.
    Now I have second settler and have to settle floodplains - I need commerce ASAP.

    Which position would be the best? Please give some advices how to settle 2 cities on floodplains to have all FP worked eventually

    Pacal is expansive but I still have some doubts with losing fresh water and settling on the hill.

    Personally i prefer plain tile next to gold first.

    What about research?
    a) Fishing to settle fish-fur city?
    b) writing ?
    c) AH before writing and put a blocker sity NW?

    Spoiler :
     

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  14. Doshin

    Doshin jolly yellow giant

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    I haven't opened the save. How close is Mutal to a border pop?

    I'd personally tech AH next, to work the Pigs and Sheep. The 3rd city could be settled on the roaded Plains tile. This can borrow the Corn to grow to size 2 and whip a Monument, while Lakamba (sp?) works the FPs (cottage this before mining the Gold).

    Hopefully Mutal will pop its borders soon, allowing City #3 to work the Oasis.

    The Fish site will be awesome, but that city will take a long time to set up. It has no food in the inner circle, so getting a Monument and a Work Boat will be a slog. It'll be a good fourth/fifth city, because by that point the Fur happiness will basically translate to :hammers: elsewhere, via the whip. That happiness isn't needed right now, and there are no roads headed towards the site (this will consume 8-9 Worker turns even before you build a Camp).

    Granaries should be prioritized. Overflow into these, and then whip or chop before the foodbank reaches the halfway point. 1-pop whips are fine when there is very little whip anger.
     
  15. Ecori

    Ecori Immortal

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    I don't like the location of Lakamha at all. It's too far from your Capital and it's way too close to Sury. This city is just asking him for trouble. And Sury is one of the more dangerous AIs. I think you should have settled it 2E of it's current location. You still have Corn+Gold in the first ring and after a border pop you can start using the Pigs until another city needs it.

    You really don't need commerce from floodplains on a map like this. Once the first Gold is up and running your good. Ofcourse you will want to cottage your cap and found helper cities to work them for Mutal, but it is not that urgent imo. I would just try to claim as much land in the west as possible and use the goldmines to stay afloat. Then once that land is secured you can backfill the east.
     
  16. Fippy

    Fippy Micro Junkie Queen

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    I agree with Ecori, on Immortal you need to start planing ahead with dangerous AIs :)
    My last post maybe was not detailed enuf, and i know it's too late now for this game but for learning purpose..

    Resource-less UUs like Holks make "choking" reliable, with the idea being that you send some into his land, most likely fortify them on a good def. loc (forest hill), and screw up his expansion. Holkans are not beatable for him like that, if he does not get copper..which would be one of your main goals to avoid. Checking for his answers when you contact him "fear my archer!" is a little trick to find out if he has Axes already, just "visit" him until he talks about units.

    Another advantage is worker stealing, an early Holkan might make Woodsman 2, and then you can prolly steal loads. But even without, your DoW move can usually be a worker steal, making up some of the time you spent on your Holks.

    With how you played now, you are always in danger of him starting to plot.
    This may or may not work, creative AIs if they settle more cities close will soon build up close border tensions. And your close city now is not on hills, so your main worry will not be Barbs but him soon.
     
  17. enKage

    enKage Follower of Zoamelgustar

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    @Doshin
    I admit I am surprised with this advice, personally I would never settle a town there - no commerce, no food later when I settle double gold city etc. But now I can see some pros. It would never be a good city but will give a lot of short term benefits (pighs pr corn + mines = units). How should I work its tiles later? Cottaging?
    Mutal borders will pop in 6 turns, sp it is okay as 3rd city. Overflow to worker because I am still 2 or 3 turns to pottery (that is also why I wait with whipping the monument)


    What about further (post AF) research options?

    @Fippy
    I had a chance earlier to steal his worker but I didnt, my warior would be on grassland tile against his two archers. AFAIK he would attack.
    I have a chance to steal it now, as my warrior is now woodsman2 and there is only 1 archer in his city. Should I? I can whip Holkan in Lakamha just in case but it seems like he has only a few archers and 2 of them escorting a settler
     
  18. Doshin

    Doshin jolly yellow giant

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    I'd probably go from AH ---> Writing ---> Fishing, but I haven't opened the file so can't effectively judge your tech rate.

    Whip the Monument now. It'll mean 2-3 turns less whip anger, and Expansive leaders can 1-pop whip Granaries at size 2 as long as 1:hammers: is invested (I think... you should check).

    City 3 won't be the best, but it will contribute a great deal in the short-term. I would probably farm the Grassland tiles and whip units and Settlers at size 4. Or you can use the Corn and Pigs to grow to size 4/5 and run two Scientists, switching the remaining tiles back to the farms. Long-term... well, it can either be a mediocre National Epic spot, or you can continue to :whipped: . Two other cities will share the Corn and Pigs, so you can manage happiness via tile sharing.

    Choking is a good skill to learn, for sure. If you haven't done it before, don't worry too much. It makes games very easy when done well, but moving up a level means mastering (or refining) lots of different areas. If you watch Absolute Zero's videos, you can see how it's done here.
     
  19. enKage

    enKage Follower of Zoamelgustar

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    It is now turn 69 and that is what has happened:

    I declared war on Sury capturing his worker. Whipped monument and holkan in Lakamha, holkan went into Sury's land and pillaged stones. Woodman2 warrior captured second worker so I have labour to improve 3rd city xD

    Unfortunately I had to retreat because there were barb archers coming from north and I got back with holkan just in time. After few turns sued for peace and it was accepted.
    Sury found third city with bronze in BFC. Although he improved the mine, copper is still not connected. I have 2 holkans next to it to attack again when worker appers.

    It looks like Sury has no horses also because I still havent seen any chariots, so declaring again should be safe as he has only archers (many, 5 archers in border city, and 3 !!!! guarding barbarian settlement in the jungle) and no fast units able to pillage anything or take cities defended by warriors by surprise

    In mutal i went worker warior granary (regrow) and double whipped one more settler, overflow to holkan (no writing yet). I settled 4th city on the plain tile in the middle of floodplains. Settling it on the coast and by the river will allow me to chop forests without health concern. This city can work cottages for Mutal and work gold mine in just few turns.

    Now I have 2 settlers started for two cities. One of them would be fish/fur (luxury asap), but i dont know where to put the second one - pig/double gold (on the coast to have +1food from lake) OR copper/pig city to completely cut off Surys expansions and build something more than holkan. Probably I should settle on copper to have dumbos in BFC? Anyway, to the north is jungle so Willem will not come too soon.

    Of course my first 3 cities have granary now, whipping settler will allow to build libraries.

    RESEARCH
    I went pottery - AH - Writing (opened borders with Willem and I dont remember but probably I was first to writing) - Fishing abd now have some options

    a) Maths - Masonry - Construction (ball court + catas + elephants)
    b) Alpha (?)
    c) any other

    I will be glad if you put a comment
    Thanks in advance, savegame - Buffy mod

    Spoiler :

     

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  20. Gwynnja

    Gwynnja Deity

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    If he hooks up horses, he can't really hurt you with them.
     

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