I want to beat Immo! (Pacal game, advisors are welcome)

[Gumbolt]

I don't like chichen Itza city. Apart from blocking serves no purpose. Weak city with no real resources to work.
Uxmal could of been settled 1se on plains hills. Covers so many more flood plains.


I would settle 1 north of c2 to grab ivory with border pop. The pig double gold city was much stronger. 1 border pop required for the 2 gold and plenty of food.

Fur site is not urgent.
Grab the 2xgold/pigs. Site B looks okay.
Ivory/copper/pigs sites.

You can easily rex to 6-7 cities and then decide if you want to axe/pult rush sury. Construction and ballrooms are great combo. +3 happiness.

Happiness from fur/ivory is nice too.

You need a great scientist. You should be working 2 scientists somewhere.

This start is so loaded in your favour if you can beat off Sury. All those gold and financial leader with so many flood plains.

 

[enKage]

Uxmal could of been settled 1se on plains hills. Covers so many more flood plains.

(...)

You need a great scientist. You should be working 2 scientists somewhere.

This start is so loaded in your favour if you can beat off Sury. All those gold and financial leader with so many flood plains.

Actually Uxmal now has 7 floodplains in BFC. 1 SE will give 6 FP only. 1 SE gives 9 FP but limited forests chops (no health from fresh water and no possible additional health from harbour)

I think I shuold work scientist now. Propably Mutal or ChitchenItza when library complete.

 

[Gumbolt]

I am way past your game date now so can't offer too much more advice. I think the game is very winnable from where you are. Just build up 6-7 cities and start the war machine rolling. At some point you will likely need astronomy.

 

[ben-jammin]

You don't need to keep him from hooking up copper. A stack of mixed elephants/axes/catapults can power through even longbows and pikes.

Your priorities should be securing elephants (there are elephants up for grabs I take it? You mention an Ivory site which I assume is the barb city?) and getting commerce in that order. So I agree with Gumbolt that the fish/fur site is lower priority than getting and working all that gold. 6 cities is already plenty.

Getting construction ASAP is the top priority if you've decided on elepults, it will be a faster and cheaper war (with much faster recovery, meaning Lib is still possible) if he doesn't get to Feudalism and start upgrading his archers.

I would bulb Math if you get your first GS fast enough as you'll be turning off your slider for a while after construction anyway.

 

[enKage]

It is now turn 121
I need some comments and advice
Savegame attached - BUFFY mod

I whipped 3 settlers and settled 3 cities (fish.furs, doublegold, pig/copper.ele) nearly the same time, overflows to libriaries / holkans.

Research: 0% Masonry (2 scientists made it in 12 turns ) after 17 turns GS popped up, so I bulbed Maths. I had a lot of gold, so construction, esthetics, other stuff went 100% research (sailing, calendar, currency etc. then binary research: metal casting code of laws). Wilem stiil doesnt want to trade techs

When Sury wanted to connect copper, I declared war again. I had only few holkans, copper was ready some turns later, so I pillaged everything I could and killed some wandering archers

I wanted to trade esthetics to Willem, but he offered some kind of junk (Alphabet). I was tempted to trade it to take same techs from Sury as my war contribution, but I decided to take most Sury's land, especcialy when I researched IW and saw Iron in his land. I decided to crush him when he has only archers.

I wanted northern city first because it was weakly protected, but when I was ready Willem came to capture barb city, so I had to move back. Fortunately his chariots and catas left 1 weakened archer for me

Finally I took all his land except one town, taking all his techs (he got alphabet just few turns later so I took alphabet, polytheism archery). I hope Willem will not go Feudalism now because I dont want him to vassalize Sury.

Scrrenshots of empire

Spoiler :

WHAT NOW
A
Teching.
My priorities are civil Service, Optics, Astro through Liberalism (?) What should be exact teching sequence? (Civil Service first then Optics or straight to universities?)
B
Civics
I think it is time to go caste system and get more GS - bulbing or Academies (I think having 2 academies would be nice...)
C
Willem
He is no eager to trade techs probably because he has no contact with other civs and thinks he has monopoly
BUT
Should I trade horses with him? He would take only furs and copper.... Is it worthy to tech horseback riding, build some mounted units for future upgrades? (I dont have horses in my borders at all).
D
Wonders
Sury lost because he buit useless wonders. Now Stonehenge and Temple of Artemis is mine.
I've built Statue of Zeus on my own, just to put some border pressure on Willem (he anted to use my elephant camp, but he cannot anymore)
I'm building Hanging Garden, I like combo baalcourts + Hanging Gardens and I had nothing else to build. Now stopped for the moment, until I get stone.
Which wonder (if any) I shuold build? I think collossus may be worth building just not to allow Willem to have it.

E
Cities
Please help me choose proper national wonders... Or indicate where I am wrong
Oxford - Uxmal
Heroic Epic - Oxhuitza? I like to have HE in coastal city, but I cannot see any strong candidate. Oxhuitza (OMG what a name!) has probably the best production and is not riverside.
National Epic - Mutal? Or Anghor Thom - I think 2nd is better as it has only 4 workable tiles, 2 of them are food 5+.
Ironworks - I cannot see any suitable place. Willem doesnt have it either. Hariharalaya??
Moai - the city I will settle 3S from former Khmer capital/


F Great People
I have 1GCommander - settle it in Heroic city? I dont have to attach him to any unit, I managed to keep 10exp holkan.
GS
Academy in Uxmal and Mutal? or keep for lib race?

SOME STATS
demoscreen - Willem!! I hate you!

Spoiler :

wonders - come really late

Spoiler :

 

[ben-jammin]

If Willem won't trade then he's pretty much useless. The quickest way to remove him would be to go for engineering and use your leftover stack with trebs and macemen. This would probably mean you lose lib, but have so much land that it shouldn't matter if you manage your empire right.

 

[enKage]

If Willem won't trade then he's pretty much useless. The quickest way to remove him would be to go for engineering and use your leftover stack with trebs and macemen. This would probably mean you lose lib, but have so much land that it shouldn't matter if you manage your empire right.

Demo says Willem is no1 to reach liberalism. So civil service + machinery + optics + engeneeiring?

His core cities are quite far away, it make take ages

 

[Gumbolt]

Update of my game from where I had played to. 175ad.

Spoiler :

I built capital on plains hill. Settled second city for gold and pigs double city. Settled eastern city of capital on the plains hill. Settled copper/pigs/ivory city up north. Followed by the fur and 1-2 other cities.

I teched early for pottery skipping Ah initially. Eventually went BW. I missed out on oracle by 1 turn.

Headed towards maths/construction, then to HBR.

Fought a long drawn out war early on with Sury. Sury sent quite a few stacks of axes/swords at one of my well defended cities. I eventually started whipping pults followed by phants. Sury is down to 5 cities and pretty much gone.

Tech wise I have currency, aesthetics and 50% of CS researched. Music should be easy here.

Captured mids and SH in Sury capital.

I have played on further to 650ad or so.

 

[enKage]

Update of my game from where I had played to. 175ad.

Spoiler :

I built capital on plains hill. Settled second city for gold and pigs double city. Settled eastern city of capital on the plains hill. Settled copper/pigs/ivory city up north. Followed by the fur and 1-2 other cities.

I teched early for pottery skipping Ah initially. Eventually went BW. I missed out on oracle by 1 turn.

Headed towards maths/construction, then to HBR.

Fought a long drawn out war early on with Sury. Sury sent quite a few stacks of axes/swords at one of my well defended cities. I eventually started whipping pults followed by phants. Sury is down to 5 cities and pretty much gone.

Tech wise I have currency, aesthetics and 50% of CS researched. Music should be easy here.

Captured mids and SH in Sury capital.

I have played on further to 650ad or so.

Haw was Willy going in your game on 150 AD?

 

[Gumbolt]

Spoiler :

I think Willy was ahead in some front tech wise. He took the engineering route very early. I suspect he is going for culture in my game.

Save attached. I have played on to 1000ad now and I am preparing to take Willem down. City by city approach. Been out all afternoon so not had a chance to play on further.

 

[enKage]

Spoiler :

I think Willy was ahead in some front tech wise. He took the engineering route very early. I suspect he is going for culture in my game.

Save attached. I have played on to 1000ad now and I am preparing to take Willem down. City by city approach. Been out all afternoon so not had a chance to play on further.

I wish I had your Willem in my game...

 

[Gumbolt]

Yep in your game I suspect you won't get music first. Willem has a lot of techs but he is the sort of Ai that will tech all the way to engineering while you plot to take him down. This gives you a big opportunity. Let him waste 7-8 turns on music. He will only settle the ga or bomb it.

You and willem both have 11 cities. He has HA already. I see no reason why you can't try a phant/pult rush on him to take down 3-4+ cities. Sure he has a 10 strong stack but mostly ancient era units. Nothings pults and phants won't kill. His cities will be a bit stronger and larger.

I can't see any horse in your land for curs. Keep pushing and focus your stack up north? Slavery and whip?

Do we want that settler build? Tough call. Ball court finished would help with happiness for a war. The downside to a slavery war is you have gone the cottage route in a lot of cities.

The game is still very winnable. pults/axe/holkan/phants have a bit longer shelf life. Although Longbows can't be far off. Although he is a long way from pikes.

 

[enKage]

1545 AD

I went HR - lierature - priesthood - monarchy - feidalism - I needed vassalage, beaurocracy wont work as my main research city was not capital. Then machinary engeniering civil service then beelined optics and astro

Willem researched music feudalism and went straight to knights.

After 10 turns I declared again on Sury to finish him. He settled another city I wanted ASAP because of 2 health resources I didnt have - wheat and claim. After few turns Sury was gone.

I built stable, heroic epic near the border, settld general there, this coty was able to build elephant every turn!

880 AD, when I was still before machinery, Willem declared on me - he probably wanted to check how his knight will work. But they didnt work against elephs

I took his 3 cities rather quickly, later it was harder - my catas were gone and I still didnt had trebuchets. Even later I had too little stacks and my trebucgets were losing lots of battles even with positive odds.

The war ended about 1480 (?) with Willem capitulation.
Why so long?
1) Willem wanted to give me junky techs for peace. He captulated when he was down to 2 cities
2) When I am warring, I dont pay enough attention to cities I am too concerned of what will happen next turn and dont micromanage.
3) I took only one nce city. I wanted his core land asap with his juicy wonders (GLH, mausoleum, GLib, 2 shrines, versailles, sistine chapel and some more. Utrecht was my main goal (just look inside this city...)
4) His culture pressure was sooo huge

In the meantime
I was first to circumnavigate the globe
I built the collosus and notre dam
Willem was first to lib and took.... Divine right o_O
I built acadamy in Uxmal
Got 2 GE, one for Oxford, one for future mining (I have soooo many gold and copper)

I am still behind on techs (war war war) - I saw privateer and grenadiers somewhere - but collected huge amount of gold (4,5 k)
Now, after gettin lib and economics, I
a) rushed oxford with GE
b) entered golden age with GS (mausoleum), switched to free spech, free religion, caste system
c) have 1 GA for another golden age
d) trying to get GM for corpo (cereal, too little rice end seafood) or golden age
e) will run 100 percent science (12 turns, enough gold) and go for replacable parts (2 turns!) - this part of techtree was completely skipped by every AI - I will need reilroad fo defence just in case
f) I am trading with every civ and have huuuuge happines and health cap

The game is probably already won, just have to keep an eye on Germans, who are able to disturb my plans with culture victory.
I want to win space, though I can win quicker by producing some hindu missionaires


BTW
1) I reload few times, but never because my units died in battle. Just to correct some stupid mistakes like razing cities by misclick etc.

2) What a strange situation... Burgerking and Saladin are founders of different religions, and these 2 zealots aro not worst enemies... How it is possible?

Save attached

 

[enKage]

1856 space colony win !
Actually game was won ca. 1400 - from this point it would be very difficult to lose/


My first win on immo so date is not fantastic

What was needed to win?
a) map
good start position for Pacal and weak to mostly any other AI (low food starts, plain sheep in BFC etc.).
AI with good starting position were Khmer, but could not take advantage of it and Joao, but he was initially limited by jungle.
Very good start gave Willem tech lead, but he was crushed in war
b) your advices - teching, bulbing, settling some cities. I will probably do it other way in my old fashioned emperor way
c) civ - traits (financial) and UU - holkan
d) early war with Sury and keepping him in stone age - holkan again. In game I built only 5 workers (!!!!!). Most of them when I needed I took from Sury
e) better use of great people, math bulb, 3 golden ages ...
f) Willems wonders And Willem on my continent, not with other non financial and non philo civs
g) more flexible way of playing than usual, I dont remember when I run vassalage before and took military techpath before scientifical one o_O I was so sticked to beauro, that I didnt see any advantages of being at war while having better trained units

Did I miss omething?
EDIT
I did
Settling 2nd city - Khmer blocker with nice commerce and nice food

I am soooooo proud !!

save attached - turn after victory

 

[Gumbolt]

A win is a win on immortal. Maybe you could of taken a rifle/cannon war to the other AI?

I am at 1435ad on my game and Willem capitulated with 5 cities left. He is quite a pain so I may yet take him down.

I beat the Ai to liberalism but only took gunpowder. I rushed Willem with curs and this mostly did the trick. The other Ai mostly have rifles now.

Willem was a bit of a tech monster and he was fast approaching rifles before I capitulated him.

I am not sure about your tech orders. Monarchy-feud-machinery -engineering is the route all the Ai beeline. I rarely go down this route unless the map dictates. E.g lack of happiness resources.

You perhaps only needed to weaken Willem. Could you of beaten him to lib? Better tech planning maybe next time?

 

[Quibblesome]

2) What a strange situation... Burgerking and Saladin are founders of different religions, and these 2 zealots aro not worst enemies... How it is possible?

Wow what was up with the AI in your game? Willem DoWing on you is a little unusual as well isn't it, was he mad at you for some reason?

 

[enKage]

@Gumbolt
Yes, I could fight another AI, but after Willem and 1st golden age I was already on winning position. I took quicker end by peaceful spaceship not interferring with unit movements.
I also didnt need to fight as all of them were friendly for most of the time and all the resources I lacked I was given by trade.

I also had no chance to beat Willem n liberalism. He was far too advance in scientific and cultural tech tree than me. Weakening him was no option, because of his huge culture.



@Quibblesome
Very strange behaviour of AIs.
As for Willem: he was cautious to me because of-1 from declaring on Sury and maybe later another -1 from close borders bcause of Statue of Zeus on the border.
Maybe some kind of random event, maybe a quest to get ivory or else