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I want your opinion on something

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by jepenyot, Apr 28, 2015.

  1. jepenyot

    jepenyot Chieftain

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    So I am playing with my brother in Civ V and we were doing fine till he started stealing a bunch of tech from me. I know that is fine but I said in the chat to be like the AI "I forgive you this time but next time will be war". He then started to put his troops around my border, granted its a narrow land (5-6 tiles wide) and he had troops that had 2 waves of troops. I called it an act of aggression and he called it defending his border (his border was 8-9 tiles away yet he was at my border) so I went to war with him. After 10-15 turns, he was winning the war but didn't take a city yet, didn't even manage to get to it but was getting awfully close. So I asked for peace and he said no because I was a warmonger for declaring war and he had to take a city. In the end thankfully after me giving him all my gold but we are still in a disagreement about me thinking he was doing an act of aggression. I thought of getting yall's opinions as I couldn't think of a better forum to ask this question on. Sorry if I'm scattered, I am playing him and writing this at the same time lol.

    Thank you in advance for giving me your opinions
     
  2. Gen.Washington

    Gen.Washington Anti-communist

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    preemptive strike was justified I guess, however it probably wasn't wise.
     
  3. Delnar_Ersike

    Delnar_Ersike Prince

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    It was an act of aggression to line up troops at your border... but that doesn't matter, because "acts of aggression" are semantics in Civ5: your threat of war if you caught him stealing techs again could also be considered an act of aggression.

    Also, you generally don't want to threaten someone with war unless you know you'll either win or force your opponent to lose more than you; the latter is usually done either by creating a stalemate that your opponent needs to dedicate more of their resources to than you, or by creating a stalemate and then sneaking a few fast-movers behind the frontlines to pillage all of their tile improvements, usually devastating their economy (especially if they're luxuries or strategic resources).
     
  4. Volcanon

    Volcanon Prince

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    If you're that far ahead why didn't you build your own army and crush his? Never declare war if you don't know you can win. Just put a counterspy in his base and pay AI to attack him.
     
  5. phillipwyllie

    phillipwyllie Wannabe Deity

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    You threatened him in chat and then subsequently DOWed him. From my perspective you are the aggressor, and also in the eys of the AI for the DOW.
     
  6. jepenyot

    jepenyot Chieftain

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    Well that's news to me, how do you pay AI to attack someone? I always thought you just ask and hope they will say yes
     
  7. kaltorak

    kaltorak Emperor

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    You open a trade. On the bottom of his side you can click on "other civs"->declare war->choose the civ or city state

    Then ask what he would demand for it. Sometimes they say it isnt possible, sometimes they do ask for too much, and sometimes it's even cheap
     
  8. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    There is no "good" side in this story from a moral perspective.

    Certainly, however, the nation posturing aggressively is most right when its troops can back its word.

    Stealing tech is annoying but it does not actively harm you directly. Threatening him for it is somewhat aggressive. Placing a large amount of forces on your border is even more aggressive.

    Declaring war over a large number of forces on your border, despite what the idiot AI thinks, is less aggressive than putting them there in the first place, but that doesn't mean you should do it if you can't win the war :mischief:.
     
  9. Volcanon

    Volcanon Prince

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    In a game with two humans and a bunch of AI, it's rather fun to pay every AI to attack the other human. If you're Venice or a rich civ then this probably isn't even a big deal money-wise.

    It's easier to pay warmonger civs like the Zulu to attack people, or civs who hate the other player for whatever reason.
     
  10. Solutionfinder

    Solutionfinder Warlord

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    Agree with Volcanon. A counter spy, constabulary, police station and you are pretty much safe. However, if your bro is smart, he will just re-route his spies to another city of yours. I mean he is not AI that only targets your captiol.

    You can also pay AI to att him. Sometimes when you ask them what they want, they say that this is not possible but you can still get them to att him if their military power is about the same. Just keep rising gold per turn until they accept, add couple of lux and strategic resources....you can later cancel the deal by declaring war on AI that you made the deal with.

    I would also recommend constructing forts 2 hexes apart near the borders with your bro, preferably on hills and putting strongest units in it to fortify, heal and defend only so it`s hard to breach the line. And you attack with with range units from behind, just make sure it`s not flat - hill because early units wont be able to attack...even better one is citadel if you have GG. Also have fort replacements on standby so when their health is low you send fresh units in there and pull back those units in safety to heal.
     
  11. dasaard200

    dasaard200 Prince

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    If you can kill the spy, do so . Do not threaten until you can put Bozo DOWN . YOU want to be an info black hole, to keep Bozo guessing .
     
  12. Sedwick

    Sedwick Parent, then Civ'er

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    If you try to bribe an AI civ (friendly to your opponent) to go to war with your opponent and they refuse, do they warn your opponent that you're plotting against them?

    Also, when a civ approaches you with a co-DoW, can you demand something in return?
     
  13. beetle

    beetle Deity

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    No, and what is worse (from an immersion perspective) is that there are no repercussions for bribing an AI to DOW an AI that is friendly to you.

    Not at that screen, and those discuss screens are the only way to DOW with 10-turn delay. If you are going to DOW someone anyway, it is possible to find (via the trade screens) that an AI will pay you for the service. However, the offers I get have always been so trivial that I hardly bother. Has anyone gotten good offers to DOW?
     
  14. poom3619

    poom3619 Ping Pang Poom!

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    When it's AI vs. AI or Human vs. AI. I would have easier judgement on this. But in Human vs Human case, It's a bit more complex as in real life war.

    I think this time he justify his war because you declare war on him. But I doubt he will think differently if he declare war first and he may be like, "Why peace? I'm winning" or because he deduced that if he didn't amass him troop on you then you may do that first.
     
  15. RuleroftheHex

    RuleroftheHex Chieftain

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    Really, the OP is at fault here. There are non-agressive ways to prevent tech stealing, and getting Police Stations in every city, which is the most effective defense, gives you access to the National Intelligence Agency, which would help even more. Since the OP chose the threaten his brother with war, the OP is the aggressor. That said, once the brother takes cities, he has become the aggressor. As for solutions, I'd say that the best path is to devote most cities to Wealth production and pay a bunch of AIs to DoW him. Meanwhile, any UUs he can be built should be built in any city not producing Wealth. Also, I would try for lump sums of gold from DoFed AIs to rush-buy a few units. I would go for units that can fortify and/or are mobile.
     
  16. poom3619

    poom3619 Ping Pang Poom!

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    I agree, when an AI declare war on him. It would be hard for him to know you're behind this if he doesn't concentrate at you. I mean, you can be nice while he amass his troop at your border. Bribe an AI from other side of his land to attack him and see how he reacts. If you got golds you can bribe more AI and later join it ;)

    That said, I would really wonder what kind of brother you are if you do this.
     
  17. OnceAKing

    OnceAKing Warlord

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    Might be a bit late but.....


    The best defense is a good offense. Now way you should have let him be even at parity with you if you were going to threaten him with war. Point blank period, don't Saber Radle with no saber. Might makes right. And if you are a super power you can make idle threats of war but if the opponent even feels like they can take you then don't go that route.


    Also when you asked for peace, it indicated that you were weak. No sense in him giving you peace then. You are forever crippled now.


    To answer your question you were the agressor by threatening war and declaring it.

    Had you been a super power compared to him then I'd say he was the agressor.
     
  18. Athenaeum

    Athenaeum Prince

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    That's one thing I hate about SP.

    An AI can put a massive army at your border, or you can have a scout that is exploring and sees a giant army headed towards your city. And if you DOW the AI preemptively because you know what's coming, YOU get the warmongerer penalty with other civs.
     
  19. beetle

    beetle Deity

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    The diplo hit for DOWing is very modest.
     
  20. eris

    eris King

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    Is putting troops on your border an offensive tactic?

    It depends on who you are dealing with. If it is me, then yes, that is an offensive move and I intend to do something with those troops sooner or later, probably sooner. If it is someone next to my build up, then, no, it is a defensive move. I haven't done multiplayer Civ 5, but I recognize the principle from Risk games I play. It has been the subject of heated discussion and named the "Bad Neighbor" policy. I get labelled the bad neighbor. ;)

    If you trust the person doing the build up, then it is not an offensive move. If you are not playing a full cooperative game, then you should not trust anyone. As a general tactic, it is passive aggressive. Your reaction can also be passive aggressive, by matching the build up, or full aggressive, by attacking. Otherwise you put up with it and worry because you are too weak to do anything else. You own the responsibility for your reaction.

    TL;DR

    Deciding to initiate the actual war makes you the official and logical aggressor. They can stick out their tongue at you and be trying to start something, but if you hit them, you actually started it.
     

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