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I wish BE was a Sandbox game; NO Victory Conditions

Discussion in 'CivBE - General Discussions' started by El Caballerion, Apr 23, 2014.

  1. poom3619

    poom3619 Ping Pang Poom!

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    While I agree with journey part. Civ series is Civ series. They have their own styles and design. I don't think they would change way to full sandbox game. But if they can make the unmodded game be played with or without victory condition, then it would be awesome.
     
  2. Lord Shadow

    Lord Shadow General

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    That's been an option for most if not all of the series. No reason to expect otherwise from CivBE.
     
  3. Naokaukodem

    Naokaukodem Millenary King

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    Yes basically....
     
  4. PhilBowles

    PhilBowles Deity

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    I don't think it should be binary; sandbox games often don't offer very compelling emergent goals, and can become rather samey over time (EU, say: okay, I've conquered the world from Cambodia. Now to do it from Madagascar. Been there, done that. How about Uruguay? Hmm, hold on, isn't 'conquer the world from an unlikely starting location' starting to get old?); in many cases they benefit from victory conditions, while Civ games have One More Turn that allows you to play beyond them.

    But if you removed VCs from Civ, what do you have left? The game fundamentally isn't designed as a sandbox and doesn't really offer a huge amount you can do in that regard. You expand and you fight wars; that's basically it, and map sizes make the expansion phase finite. That leads to a finite building phase before you run out of stuff. Try playing any older Civ game as a sandbox where you just do your own thing, and you find yourself spammed with other players' cities (less so in Civ V, where expansion tends to be slower). Crusader Kings II is a brilliant sandbox because of its character and dynasty focus and the huge variety of possible outcomes, but the features that make it work aren't transferrable to Civ. A Civ sandbox is ultimately as dull as EU or Hearts of Iron, due to the repetitive gameplay described above.

    If VCs were the only issue, One More Turn is fine; however I find I have very little incentive to play it, especially in Civ V. In older games you could use One More Turn to pass assorted resolutions (you can in Civ V, but UN resolutions in Civ Vare pretty much all geared towards victory and become rather pointless afterwards) or build a better rocket ... but then that's back to the civ setting out to meet a victory condition.

    You're right that Civ games should be better at promoting interaction with and adaptation to the environment, and I'm hoping that the promise made in the Rock Paper Shotgun interview that BE will do this and dispense with build order play both works and is transferred to future Civ games, but that really has nothing to do with whether or not the game's a sandbox.
     
  5. Mustakrakish

    Mustakrakish In 'Node' We Trust

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    Mastery victory would make it sandbox-y enough for me. Game not ending with certain VC, but with time, then listing achievements of the world in that game. Got several VC? Awesome. Or you got one, while others got other VC (or grand achievements)

    :)

    Never mind me, I just really want this and never tire to speak about it...
     
  6. awesome

    awesome Meme Lord

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    The reason why the victory conditions are what they are is because people did indeed dream of accomplishing them:
    -Ancient civilizations definitely dreamed of going into space. Even modern ones still dream of it. The only difference between ancient and modern civilizations is that it's been shown that it's possible to do
    -People have dreamed of conquering the world throughout history. It hasn't officially happened, but there have been some huge empires.
    I'm not going to bother going through every condition, but i think that I've made my point. Did a giant box pop up when these things were accomplished, telling us that we won the game? No, but we haven't gotten to 2050 yet. Maybe this is all just a master victory game.
     
  7. PhilBowles

    PhilBowles Deity

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    This is questionable, and certainly didn't amount to Babylonians envisaging a trip to a specific star.

    Looking at it critically it's actually very hard to identify any leaders who've genuinely dreamed of 'conquering the world' - pretty much all of the major conquerors have had particular goals in mind and have ignored certain parts of the world they knew to exist (for example, Alexander never penetrated south or west of Egypt despite knowing that land existed there - it wasn't on his itinerary. European conquerors have generally had few ambitions beyond conquering Europe), quite frequently forming alliances in order to do so.

    Just as well given the difficulty in identifying any precedent for someone desiring to be elected world leader. And while cultural supremacy has long been a goal of major civilisations, much moreso than military conquest, it's never taken the form of wanting to build three cultural megacities, or spreading pop culture around the planet.

    And let's not forget that score victory has always been a VC in Civ - who's ever dreamed of having the civilisation with the highest score?
     
  8. awesome

    awesome Meme Lord

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    Plenty of ancient civilizations have studied science, and astronomy in particular, so even if that was simply for knowledge, you can't deny that it had an impact on modern astronomy and wishes to explore the stars.
    The Mongols, for one, wanted to conquer the world.
    And i think you're taking the exact iterations of the victory conditions a bit too literally. Obviously, nobody was trying to get the legendary cities and that's it, or to get enough social policies to unlock the Utopia Project, but the idea of cultural dominance had always been important. Same with diplomacy.
    And the score is just there because you know it's a game and had to end somehow because of the reasons other people gave.
     
  9. Krajzen

    Krajzen Deity

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    I don't understand the purpose of this thread.

    If you wanna sandbox, disable all victory conditions.

    But people wanna goals. Simple.
     
  10. Lancor

    Lancor Prince

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    Almost every major culture and religion thought about different worlds and visiting them. Of course only since the modern ages we know the concept of planets and space.

    Did you never dream about ruling the world? Do you think persons which ruled empires had not thought about it?

    I bet the US would call it a victory if the whole world would adapt exactly the same culture as they have. ;)
     
  11. cakes

    cakes Prince

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    i don't think BE being sandbox would improve it at all. i think it's fine that some games aren't sandbox games
     

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