Idea for better Chinese special unit

[TVA22]

Okay, I'm just making a suggestion, not asking for anyone to go on a "China bashing parade" which people at civ forums do a lot, because everyone besides me seems to hate chinese in the game and in real life on civ forums, and I'm also not asking for any comments on martial arts movies, theres plenty of other crouching tiger hidden dragon discussion forums out there, but I had the idea that first of all, the unique units are not very well blended into the overall game, all of them come in the ancient age, it seems (yes, I know there are some exceptions) which I know has been discussed before, but I would like to reiterate that point, because I'm just now noticing how annoying it is for there to be such flavor in the early parts of the game, but by the end its just blah blah blah same same same...

Anyway, I think a better unit for the Chinese civilization would have been a shaolin monk. No, not a super 99/99/99 fighter who beats all in everything always, something realistic (though I can't guess on the stats). In real life, Kung Fu started out as Indian exercise techniques to get the Shaolin monks in shape back around Jesus' birth. From there, as it was associated with monks, it took on a mystical appearance, evolved into what we know today, and so on. In Japan, there were buddhist monks who actually took up arms on numerous occations to protect the cities of the south from northern bandits. Don't know if this has been suggested before, but this unit would at least represent the Chinese civilization, in the same sort of way the Samurai is an absolute staple of Japan.

 

[Ozymandias]

see my response to the same post at Apolyton

-Oz.

 

[Dark Sheer]

Originally posted by TVA22
Okay, I'm just making a suggestion, not asking for anyone to go on a "China bashing parade" which people at civ forums do a lot, because everyone besides me seems to hate chinese in the game and in real life on civ forums, and I'm also not asking for any comments on martial arts movies, theres plenty of other crouching tiger hidden dragon discussion forums out there, but I had the idea that first of all, the unique units are not very well blended into the overall game, all of them come in the ancient age, it seems (yes, I know there are some exceptions) which I know has been discussed before, but I would like to reiterate that point, because I'm just now noticing how annoying it is for there to be such flavor in the early parts of the game, but by the end its just blah blah blah same same same...

Anyway, I think a better unit for the Chinese civilization would have been a shaolin monk. No, not a super 99/99/99 fighter who beats all in everything always, something realistic (though I can't guess on the stats). In real life, Kung Fu started out as Indian exercise techniques to get the Shaolin monks in shape back around Jesus' birth. From there, as it was associated with monks, it took on a mystical appearance, evolved into what we know today, and so on. In Japan, there were buddhist monks who actually took up arms on numerous occations to protect the cities of the south from northern bandits. Don't know if this has been suggested before, but this unit would at least represent the Chinese civilization, in the same sort of way the Samurai is an absolute staple of Japan.

Aha, I have the same idea for a while. But up until now I have not been able to find the time to create the flc for the monk

As to people on this forum hate chinese.....I don't really remember see anything like that on any thread Anyway, I am a chinese and it doesn't look like people hate me around here

 

[TVA22]

I wasn't trying to be offensive, please forgive me if I appear that way.. I'm just defensive of the Far East and it's people because I've always been in love with that side of the world, don't know why, it's just been my lifelong love... Even my girlfriend is from the Philippine Islands. I think it all started with the Ninja turtles, then most kids just went on, and I wanted to know what a "ninja" really was. Then it just went from there!

Maybe it was on Apolyton, I post both places, but I've seen a lot of people who just spam the Chinese mercilessly---compare them to nazis and stuff, (As someone who has been to China on multiple occations, I know that lots of what people get on CNN and BBC is not necessarily as unbaised as they think it is) For a while I stopped going to Apolyton, it seemed like every thread I went into I found something extremely offensive. So I wasn't targeting anyone specifically, I was just trying to deter anyone who may have posted something offensive in this forum which I started--sort of a preemptive strike (sp?).

Anyhoo--Dark Sheer!! Thats great!! Your units so far have been marvelous! I hope you find time to do some sort of a Shaolin Monk, no rush of course, as I said on this thread and my WW2 one, I'm not requesting units, but I must say it's encouraging to see you thinking about the same thing!

 

[TVA22]

Actually, I think if someone does do a shaolin monk there's a few ways to do it.
A) Easy approach 1 Use the Swordsman unit as the base unit. I had a friend who was very proficient in Kung Fu, especially with weapons, those were his fav. part. I remember him using the Chinese broadsword, which looked to me a lot like a machete (sp?) and involved lots of circular motions and hacking sorts of cuts.
B) Easy Approach 2 Use the spearman unit as the base unit. For the same reason as above. My friend accidently threw his spear at me once during a form. After that, I only watched him do forms from behind a window.
C) Hard approach-- Visit a kung fu site where they describe a technique, and try to make the unit look like it's doing that. http://www.kungfulibrary.com/shaolin-kung-fu-3.htm

But really now, I'm not begging for a unit or anything, I've been very impressed with what's already come out of here, and am just putting in my two cents.

 

[Dark Sheer]

Originally posted by TVA22
Actually, I think if someone does do a shaolin monk there's a few ways to do it.
A) Easy approach 1 Use the Swordsman unit as the base unit. I had a friend who was very proficient in Kung Fu, especially with weapons, those were his fav. part. I remember him using the Chinese broadsword, which looked to me a lot like a machete (sp?) and involved lots of circular motions and hacking sorts of cuts.
B) Easy Approach 2 Use the spearman unit as the base unit. For the same reason as above. My friend accidently threw his spear at me once during a form. After that, I only watched him do forms from behind a window.
C) Hard approach-- Visit a kung fu site where they describe a technique, and try to make the unit look like it's doing that. http://www.kungfulibrary.com/shaolin-kung-fu-3.htm

But really now, I'm not begging for a unit or anything, I've been very impressed with what's already come out of here, and am just putting in my two cents.

Hehe, I am not too worried about the moves as I do have some pretty good idea what they are like. I suppose I will slowly start on one as I am working on some fantasy units at the moment

 

[Bjorn Bjornson]

the samurai unit already does nice circular slashing moves.
i also like how its fortify animation, while used in the string of attack animations, looks like iaijutsu.

too bad the attack has to run until the HP drops. its funny seeing a samurai slash and hack over and over until finally an enemy dies - specially when a samurai duel would last only a few seconds, sometimes with a duel slaying


anyway, i have a question along these lines... while making a middle age attack infantry, i noticed that my swordsman, with a near kite shield, and broadsword, would not really look right being used with non-western civs.... so i was thinking an eastern counterpart would be in order... but what would be a good eastern counterpart for a medieval swordsman?

or atleast, a comparable middle age attacker for eastern civs

 

[Dark Sheer]

Originally posted by Bjorn Bjornson
the samurai unit already does nice circular slashing moves.
i also like how its fortify animation, while used in the string of attack animations, looks like iaijutsu.

too bad the attack has to run until the HP drops. its funny seeing a samurai slash and hack over and over until finally an enemy dies - specially when a samurai duel would last only a few seconds, sometimes with a duel slaying


anyway, i have a question along these lines... while making a middle age attack infantry, i noticed that my swordsman, with a near kite shield, and broadsword, would not really look right being used with non-western civs.... so i was thinking an eastern counterpart would be in order... but what would be a good eastern counterpart for a medieval swordsman?

or atleast, a comparable middle age attacker for eastern civs

From what I know, the eastern soldiers don't use kite shield. Most of them use round shield (sort of like a buckler but bigger) and some of them don't even use metal shield (some uses shield made of cured rattan which is even much better than metal but has a weakness against fire as the rattan is cured with oil ). And some don't use shield at all (notice how the chinese raiders flc do not have a shield like the knight?).

 

[Bjorn Bjornson]

does anyone think the current Swordsman unit could pass for being a generic all-around swordsman (i.e. middle/far eastern attacker)?

i had a thought of making a new ancient swordsman unit, based off the warrior, and bumping the current swordsman up in stats...

 

[Ozymandias]

Nope, best & truest unit would be the humble junk. Design inspired by bamboo so the internal hull structure was compartmentalized. More solid and seaworthy than European ships of the same period (through 15th century CE).

Emperor Yung Lo (reigned 1403-24) had the ultimate versions of these craft constructed, "treasure ships" puportedly over 400 feet long and 185 feet wide, each carring a year's supply of grain and growing vegetables (!) below deck (cf C.V.Wedgwood's "The Spoils Of Time"). 62 of these behemoths sailed with uncounted smaller craft on the first expedition in 1405. Chinese sea trade extended from Malaysia, westward all along the southern coast of Asia, into the Persian Gulf, and down the coast of Africa. Dynastic politics ended these journeys in 1432 ... a 60 year jump on Columbus to the New World would not have been unthinkable!

-Oz

 

[Bjorn Bjornson]

never mind im a moron
"It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool, then to open your mouth and remove all doubt."

 

[Dark Sheer]

Originally posted by ozymandias
... a 60 year jump on Columbus to the New World would not have been unthinkable!

-Oz

Actually, one of the earliest volume of written geographical records in china, "San Hai Qing" (Records about mountain and the sea, literaly translated ) which is written in either BC or early AD actually contain detailed records of the Rockies in US together with the exact locations of some mineral deposits. So, technically speaking the Chinese HAS already reach the US continent a long long time ago.

Unfortunately the ancient Chinese thinks too highly of themselves (treating the whole world as barbarians) and has no interest in settling in a far away land. Of course most of the dynasties' close door policies doesn't really helped either

 

[Ozymandias]

"Unfortunately the ancient Chinese thinks too highly of themselves (treating the whole world as barbarians) and has no interest in settling in a far away land. "

True, but they were interested in token tribute in recognition of this, and they brought home the occasional oddity -- and all the cross-cultural impact this implied (recall Buddhism was an "import"). Of course, in game terms, the "historic" result might have been the Aztecs rolling in silk or maybe horses ...

-Oz

 

[TVA22]

That's a good idea too! I didn't even think of it... Should have. What would it be? Maybe a replacement of the galleon, or perhaps the Chinese caravel, but give it stats like a galleon. I would think that they should not be offensive units, that's just personal preference, as I don't know of any historical reference to justify making them mainstream warships. Yes, I know there were War Junks, but I really don't think I need to elaborate--the junk should be a peaceful transport ship. They're so pretty anyway... But I digress... Yes, even if someone made a shaolin monk, I would probably give him high defense, no offense, and available with philosophy. Of course, either of these units then would screw over the Chinese "militaristic" attribute.

I don't want to get into a debate with anyone on this, I (just me, just personal preference) feel that this is a bad trait for the Chinese, or at least that there were better ones. The lack of imagination in the leaders list of Japan and China shows how half-heartedly the firaxis team felt about these civs anyway. But with either (or both ) of these units, I would most likely have to change the Chinese to Scientific or Religious in place of Militaristic. I know lots of people would disagree with me, but I'm not here to teach a Chinese history class, and I'm too tired to explain myself now.

 

[Ozymandias]

I think I'd recommend "industrious" & "religious" ... although Confucianism is, perhaps, more an ethos than a religion, the net effect in real-world terms is the same: veneration without questioning; conservatism; deification of the monarch; etc. Also engendered resistance to other religions: neighboring Hinduism and nearby Islam; Buddhism almost seems just to have been passing through on its way from India to Japan; Christianity.

Also, so many scientific advances were essentially discarded due to dynastic politics -- to think of adherence to a monarch/dynasty as being overwhelmingly more important than the advances of science certainly warrants a critical categorization, and, in the Civ canon, "religious" comes closest.

... One wonders if history books will refer to the "Mao Dynasty" as the last in the series ...

-Oz