Idea for civ 7

DarkPhoton

Chieftain
Joined
Jul 15, 2021
Messages
9
I would like it to be a bit more realistic and also have a better combat system. It also needs to be balanced for both tall and wide play. Some ideas are:

Simultaneous play. Turns are split into 2 phases: the main one where everything but combat happens, the 2nd one for combat. Units can’t move during the combat phase (they attack neighboring units for melee or units in their range) and all the combats are planned before happening all at the same time. If a unit attacks a unit that is attacking another unit, it gets flanking bonus.

Simultaneous play allows for better multiplayer and better AI since the AI can plan at the same time as the player. The AI needs to be stronger. Use machine learning. On high difficulty, the AI evaluates more positions and takes more time. For higher difficulty, handicaps might still be needed, but it should be bonuses that increase through time (like in smoother difficulty mod, but it should be the default) rather than more initial settlers. Bonuses through time are much better to make the game interesting during the whole duration.

Larger maps should be available by default (without needing a mod). We should have access to at least maps that are 4 times bigger in both directions. Modern computers won’t have any issues running that and it will allow having Earth maps that make sense.

Harder eureka and inspiration. None of them should be obtained by default like “meeting another civilization” or “getting a government with 8 slots” or randomly like “finding a new continent”.

Diplomatic victory is modified. One needs to do many accomplishments to get it, which requires to have advanced technology and do projects that help every civilization.

- Fix climate change.

- Eliminate poverty, hunger, illiteracy, epidemics.

True alliance: allies win the game together. There can be one ally for each victory type except religion.

Improved diplomacy: declaration of wars and peace deals can be done with multiple players at the same time (a war score can help divide the gains). Grievance and reputation should be separated. You lose reputation if you break a deal, but gain grievance if you hurt another civ. You should not lose reputation for winning cities after being declared war upon or for declaring war with a casus belli and following its requirement. There should be vassals. Also, everybody should start at “no diplomatic relation” until you sign the first peace treaty with them (which requires writing) and you don’t get any reputation loss for attacking someone you have “no diplomatic relation” with. It should also be possible to attack and pillage without declaring war (just lose reputation and gain grievance) as it has been pretty standard for all history and is still common now. Open borders for military units should be limited to a specific number of units and a fixed duration. People don’t allow free for all open borders. On the other hand, civilians and religious units should have open border by default (Close border to civilian should be a diplomatic action that acquire grievance and that one doesn’t have at the beginning). Also, not respecting open borders should be allowed, it just causes grievance and loss of reputation (if a peace treaty has been signed).

Rather than having UN meetings (which should not happen before the atomic era realistically), everybody should be allowed to propose joint actions at any time as soon as they have discovered another civilization and have discovered “writing”. Joint actions should be realistic and anybody with diplomatic relations with the player proposing the action can choose to join it, fight it, or refuse to participate. They can be: conquer a civilization, defend a civilization, defend a city-state, embargo a civilization (refuse trade and pillage its trade routes), fight a heresy, promote a religion, etc. Actively participating in a joint action should improve reputation, while joining and doing nothing should reduce your reputation.

City-states should give their culture and science to the civilizations divided in proportion to the influence, in addition to a suzerain bonus rather than giving bonuses to buildings (which is too good for wide play and is not realistic). You should get influence on a city for doing something that impacts them rather than random quests. So things like trade route, religious spread, gift of gold, envoy units, spy, gift of units, gift of great work, military protection.

Amenities and housing are unified. Luxury resources are used only for money, they don’t generate amenities. (Luxury resources are mostly used by a small minority so they don’t matter in the life of the majority). What counts for example are access to water, housing districts, no hunger, security, and having yields comparable or higher to the average civilization in money, science and culture.

No buildings and most improvements are replaced by districts that are repeatable in a single city. All wonders are built on a district. Districts can be built on top of another which destroys the previous one or on top of a resource (by default, so without needing a mod). Examples of districts are:

- City center: generate amenities based on water access, terrain, and appeal. Example of wonder: Eiffel tower.

- Town: generate amenities based on water access, terrain, and appeal.

- Farm: generate food. Maybe 3 per slot and multiple slots, can be improved to more.

- Fishermen’s wharf: generate food. Maybe 3 per slot and multiple slots, can be improved to more.

- Pasture: generate food and production. Maybe 2 food, 1 prod.

- Stable: generate horse, camel.

- Elephant camp: generate elephant.

- Mine: generate strategy or luxury resource. Built on ore or gems deposits. They have a limited amount of resources before exhaustion. New deposits can be found with new technology.

- Quarry: generate production. Built on hills (for stone) or flood plain (for clay). Maybe 3 per slot and multiple slots, can be improved to more.

- Lumber mill (on a forest, near a river): generate production. Maybe 3 per slot and multiple slots, can be improved to more.

- Lumber camp (on a forest, near a Lumber mill): generate production. Cheaper than the mill itself.

- Charcoal pit (on a forest, near a river): Generate charcoal.

- Plantation: generate strategy or luxury resource.

- Holy site: generate faith and some other yield. Each holy site is of a different type. Mountain god holy site generates faith from mountains, river goddess generates faith and food from rivers, etc. It replaces pantheons. Example of wonder: Statue of Zeus, Temple of Artemis.

- Burial site: generate loyalty. Example of wonder: Stonehenge, Pyramid, Mausoleum, Terracotta Army, Taj Mahal.

- Garden: generate amenities. Example of wonder: Hanging gardens.

- Market: generate money from trade routes. Example of wonder: Petra.

- Trading port: generate money from trade routes. Examples of wonder: Colossus, Great Lighthouse, Statue of Liberty.

- Military port: generate XP, can defend and attack. Example of wonder: Venetian Arsenal.

- Encampment: generate XP, can defend and attack.

- Military academy: generate more XP.

- Place of worship: generate faith from the population in an area, doesn’t stack. Needs a religion. Example of wonder: Hagia Sophia.

- Craftsmanship district: generate money from the population in an area, doesn’t stack.

- Scholarship district: generate culture and science from the population in an area, doesn’t stack. Example of wonder: Great library.

- Museum district: generate culture and tourism. Example of wonder: Louvre, Hermitage.

- Theatre district: generate culture and amenities from the population in an area, doesn’t stack.

- Amphitheater district: generate amenities and money from the population in an area, doesn’t stack. Example of wonder: Colosseum.

- Stadium district: generate amenities and tourism from the population in an area, doesn’t stack. Example of wonder: Maracana.

- University: generate science and production from the population in an area, doesn’t stack. Example of wonder: Oxford

- Financial district: generate money from the population in an area, doesn’t stack. Example of wonder: Big Ben.

- Industrial zone: generate gold and production from the population in an area, doesn’t stack. Example of wonder: Ruhr Valley

- Biology Research lab: generate science from unimproved land in an area.

- Observatory: generate science from adjacent mountain tiles.

- Technology district: generate science and money from the population in an area, doesn’t stack.

- Government plaza: boost loyalty in the range around it, give other bonuses based on government and legacy bonuses based on earlier tier last governments. Capital city center gets by default the same bonuses and loyalty boost as a government plaza. They should have a maintenance cost that increases with more complex governments.

- Etc.

There should be projects to improve districts and give them more citizen slots. That will improve tall play. Also, citizen slots need to be good like in civ 4 and 5, not useless like in civ 6.

It should be possible to acquire debt once financial districts have been built. With the debt limit set proportionally to the yield of all the financial districts. The interest rate could be at around 5%. Public debt has been a very common feature in history especially in times of war.

To get a Wonder, one must first get wonder points for the specific kind of wonder by building district projects. Then they claim the wonder, and they are the only one who can build it. Unused wonder points remain useful as they are multiple wonders in the same categories. Categories of wonder could be:

- Burial

- Spiritual

- Artistic

- Scientific

- Commercial

- Industrial

- Military

Additional great people type:

- Great navigator. For example Zheng He, Christopher Columbus, John Cabot, Ferdinand Magellan, James Cook. Gives bonuses to trade, colonization of new continents, and exploration. Points from trading port and trade route, while great admiral gets point from military ports and naval combat.

- Great theologian. Gives bonuses to faith and religion. Available after getting a great prophet or when all the great prophets have been given.

- Great diplomat. Improve influence on a city-state. Improve relation with another civ.

Some great people should be changed:

- Great scientist’s Eureka should be only theirs. Euclid should be the only way to get Eureka for mathematics and Alan Turing the only way to get Eureka for computer for example.

- Some Great writers should provide Inspiration rather than great works.

- Some Great musicians should do concerts to gain tourism (replace rock bands) rather than great works. (Especially the later ones for which there is not enough turns for the Great Work to be useful)

- Some Great artists should provide raw culture rather than great works.

Cities' usable tile range is not limited to 3 but depends on technology, movement cost, and resources. Tiles that are easier to reach thanks to river or coastal travel can be farther than 3 tiles even in the ancient era, while one won’t be able to use tiles hidden by mountains and the range will be more limited when it’s hilly. Technology and consumption of horses or oil increase the range. To make things clearer, water tiles should have a 1/3 movement cost rather than units having their movement increased when going in the water (horse-based units should have their movement lowered to the one of a unit without a horse though). Cities should acquire the closest tiles in movement cost first rather than absolute range. So their land will grow along rivers, coast, and roads first rather than being circular. It makes much more sense historically than a city will use lands connected to it by rivers, sea, or roads.

It should be possible to annex another city to a city if they are close enough. Then the city center of the annexed city becomes a town.

Growth should be based on a percentage growth that depends on health. Hunger reduces health, but having a food surplus does not create people. Food surplus is automatically sent to nearby cities with a penalty due to distance (maybe -10% per movement cost first, but is reduced by technology such as refrigeration, and usage of horses or oil). There is also growth from immigration from cities with low amenities to cities with higher amenities.

Engineers can build aqueducts, sewers, canals, roads, and walls on the boundary of the tiles. They can also build forts and some other military improvements on the tiles, which generate defense and XP for military units. And they can transport production by being built in a city and expanded in another city center. They should also be able to build siege weapons. They can be created with a variable amount of production and they disappear when the production is used up. Aqueducts, sewers, canals, walls, forts, etc. need a specific amount of production rather than being built. They cost money per turn.

More terrains, based on real climate. One needs to have discovered a staple plant adapted to this climate to create a farm, or an animal adapted to this climate for a pasture, or a luxury plant adapted to this climate for a plantation.

- Tropical rainforest (af): Reduce growth and units health. Natural disaster: mosquito-borne disease outbreak. Always forest. Can have wetland, hills, and flood plains.

- Tropical monsoon (am): Reduce growth and units health. Natural disaster: mosquito-borne disease outbreak, tropical storm. Can have forest, wetland, hills, and flood plains.

- Tropical savanna (aw/as): Natural disaster: drought, tropical storm. Can have wetland, hills, and flood plains.

- Desert (bw): no yield unless flood plains, reduce growth and units health, cannot have farms or pasture. Natural disaster: sand storm. Can have hills, and flood plains.

- Steppe (bs): Cannot have farms. Natural disaster: drought. Can have hills, and flood plains.

- Oceanic (cf): Bonus growth. Natural disaster: subtropical storm. Can have forest, wetland, hills, and flood plains.

- Dry season temperate (cw/cs): Bonus growth. Natural disaster: subtropical storm, drought. Can have forest, wetland, hills, and flood plains.

- Hot Continental (dxa): Natural disaster: subtropical storm, snowstorm. Can have forest, wetland, hills, and flood plains.

- Warm Continence (dxb): Reduce growth. Natural disaster: subtropical storm, snowstorm. Can have forest, wetland, hills, and flood plains.

- Subarctic (dxc/dxd): Low yield, reduce growth and units health, cannot have farms or pasture. Natural disaster: snowstorm. Can have forest, wetland, hills, and flood plains.

- Tundra (et): No yield, reduce health, cannot have farms or pasture. Can have hills. (Tundra should be rare and only very North, only the extreme North of Canada and Russia are tundra, it’s not that common)

- Ice Cap (ef): No yield, reduce health, cannot build anything.

- Warm Mountain: No yield, reduce health, can only build a few select districts like Terrace farms. Natural disaster: landslide.

- Cold Mountain: No yield, reduce health, can only build a few select districts like ski resorts. Natural disaster: snowslide.

- Cold Volcano: No yield, reduce health, cannot build anything. Natural disaster: snowslide, volcanic eruption. Increase adjacent production and food yield.

- Warm Volcano: No yield, reduce health, cannot build anything. Natural disaster: landslide, volcanic eruption. Increase adjacent production and food yield.

Also, have additional features such as wetlands, hills, forests, and flood plains. All terrains have an altitude that is used for combat and aqueducts (go downstream from mountain, lake, or river) and sewers (go downstream to river or ocean). Hills and forests should reduce food and increase production. Wetland should just reduce food and health. Flood plains should increase food. The base yield should be something like 2 food + 1 prod for most terrains since it represents people hunting animals and gathering plants which produce mostly food but also some production from bones, skin, and hard parts of plants.

The variety in terrains matters because they’ll look different and that’s more realistic and they’ll grow different luxury, staple plants, and animals. Also, some will have different natural disasters and reduced yield or no yield at all.

Additional disasters: flood in flood plains and low coastal areas, earthquake in some areas, epidemics (start randomly and move through trade routes).

Disasters should not improve yields. Flood plains and tiles neighboring a volcano should have a bonus yield, but they should not keep improving at each flood or eruption.

Climate change should only increase sea-level rise, floods, droughts, storms. Not volcanoes, comets, earthquakes, etc.

Wildfires should have a chance to happen when there is a drought on a forest tile and can move to other forest tiles in the drought.

The units can be on the center of a tile or one of the 6 corners, and one must pass through one of the corners before getting to another tile (equivalent to zoom out by 2, but only for military and unit movement purposes). Rivers and canals (both on the boundary) can be used by ships. The cost of movement of the boundary of 2 tiles is the minimum between the 2 unless it’s a river or canal, then it’s the cost of a water tile.

Units can move all together in a formation. Only the movement cost of the center unit is considered (so the other follows while ignoring terrain unless it’s a mountain, then they move in the formation to fit, but still the same center unit determines the movement cost). It will make moving armies easier.

Military and civilian units cost strategic resources, people, and gold, and potentially production (mostly for complex units like tanks and planes, simple warriors do not cost any production), and then have a very high maintenance cost in money. The limit on the number of units is mostly based on money and on a military supply which is a percentage of the population depending on policies (one cannot transform all his people into soldiers even with a lot of gold). Production is mostly for districts. We can’t use wood and rocks to build soldiers. On the other hand, districts cannot be built with money. Soldiers can be sent back to a city after the war or kept for XP. They accumulate XP slowly when fortified in a military improvement or district.

There should be a patriotism yield that is equivalent to money but must be spent each turn (in maintenance or creating units for example). It should be the only way to pay maintenance before the currency is discovered. It should be generated depending on population, amenities, and policies.

Border growth should be caused by getting growth points on neighboring tiles. Those points should be caused by population growth, district, policies, and money, but not culture. It should be possible to buy the tiles of other civilizations, part of the money will go to the other civilization and part will disappear (go to the locals essentially). The other civilization will get grievance and will have the opportunity to buy back the land without grievance (though it will cost more than what it received since some money is lost). Wealthy civilizations can expand their territory that way. Some policies can make your land more expansive to other civilizations or make it impossible for them to buy your lands.

Spies can be created as soon as writing is discovered. They are limited by their gold cost rather than by a strict limit. They can move as units and can attack military units (by poisoning or disorganizing them) in addition to attacking districts.

Trade routes only exist to link luxury to cities, and luxury only exists for that. Luxuries generate money based on their amount and rarity in all the cities they can reach by trade route minus a transport fee. Routes can be created by a project. Each city has some projects each connecting it to a nearby city (maybe 6 projects, one for each of the closest cities, including foreign). So roads don’t have to be built with engineers if they connect cities. The main goal of connecting cities is to trade luxury. Cities can also be connected by water if a path by water tiles is known and they have the needed technology.

Strategic resources are traded in a world market where everybody can put a sell and buy price for some number of resources. Trade only happens when the selling price + transport fee is below the buy price (the cost will be the average between the 2).

More strategic resources:

- Copper and tin: separate resources so trade might be needed. Needed for Bronze Age units. Also for some Wonders.

- Elephant, camel: for military units using them.

- Charcoal: everything that needs iron also needs that. Can also be used with niter for gunpowder units. Can also be used for heating for amenities in cold climates.

- Lead for some units like slinger using lead ammunition or javelineers using javelin with lead weight.

- Natural gas: for electricity. Needs pipeline built by engineers. (Need a natural gas power plant)

Also, many strategic resources have other usages in addition to their current units:

- Horse: used to improve farms, can be used by land trade routes.

- Niter: used for all gunpowder units and to improve farms. Can be made from oil once the Haber-Bosch process is discovered. Should only be found in arid terrain and small islands (because of guano islands).

- Oil: used to improve farms, can be used by land trade routes. Some amount is used to generate amenities for heating and transport during the modern era.

- Coal: Used for all gunpowder units and for anything that requires steel. Can be used by land trade routes. Some amount is used to generate amenities for heating depending on the climate.

- Iron: Used for all units with iron armor and weapons, even when they are mounted (needs both some iron and some horses). Used for many districts and wonders. Used for tanks and many other modern units, districts, and wonders. Iron is used everywhere.

When oil or coal is used to move units, it should be a cost per movement, rather than 1 per turn no matter if it moves or not. Also, niter and coal for gunpowder should be used for each attack, same for bronze (copper+tin) or iron for ranged units.

When a battle is won. We should get some resources and some prisoners, which can be ransomed for goal or forced to work to get extra population. Some civilizations or policies can allow to execute them for faith or patriotism bonuses.

Units can need multiple resources.

- Bronze Age units: all need at least copper+tin. Can need horses too (for chariot). Ranged units need resources for each attack.

- Iron Age/Middle-Age units: all need iron+charcoal. Can need horses, camel or elephant too. Ranged units need resources for each attack.

- Renaissance units: all need niter+charcoal per attack and charcoal+iron to be built. Charcoal is used both for gunpowder and steel.

- Modern and contemporary units: need niter+charcoal unless it has the technology to make gunpowder without them. Need iron+charcoal or iron+coal if they have steel armor. Planes need aluminum. All mobile units need oil for movement.

Nuclear power plants should not release CO2 and they should be good to avoid global warming.

Nuclear fusion should be one of the future techs and allow to build nuclear fusion power plants.

Divide the ancient era into the Stone Age era, Bronze Age era, and Iron Age era.

A wide civics tree (could be called humanities rather than civics). For example, could start with 3 civics (agrarian, pastoral, and seafaring) rather than 1, then expand in width. It is not expected to complete them all. Contains special military units, special districts, wonders, in addition of policies and governments (They can also require some technologies).

Military units should be changed. For the land units, a better set of units would be:

- Slow, range 3: stone slinger (available from start), clay slinger, lead slinger, crossbowman, field cannon, field artillery, mobile missile launcher.

- Slow, range 2: stone archer (available from start), bronze archer, iron archer, composite stone archer, composite bronze archer, composite iron archer. (Composite archers are stronger but are weakened in wet climates.), rifleman, sniper.

- Slow, range 1: light stone javelineers (available from start), light bronze javelineers, light iron javelineers, arquebusiers, musketeers, infantry.

- Slow, melee: stone spearmen (available from start), bronze spearmen, iron spearmen (need iron).

- Fast, range 2: chariot, horse archer, camel archer, dragoon, helicopter.

- Fast, range 1: horse javelineers, camel javelineers, tank, modern tank.

- Fast, range 1 or melee: cuirassier (use pistol and lance or saber).

- Slow, range 1 or melee: war elephant (usually has an archer platform, but can also charge), line infantry (melee because of bayonet charge).

- Fast, melee: horsemen, men-at-arms [men-at-arms are the real term for the military role of a knight, it’s not an infantry unit though they could fight dismounted in some occasion like any cavalry, especially in siege], demi-lancer.

- Exploration specialists: scout, horse rider, reconnaissance vehicles, drones.

- Support healing: supply chariot, supply vehicles. Heal units on the same tile and nearby. Reduce damage from the terrain.

- Support speed: transport chariot, armored vehicles. Increase speed of slow units to the speed of fast units.

- Immobile Siege: catapult, trebuchet (made by engineers)

- Immobile garrison: ballista, machine gun, missile launcher (created by cities. Cities don’t have range attack when walls are created, they need that)

- Mobile siege: Bombard, Artillery, Rocket Artillery.

Cultural units (available through the civics tree, so not everybody will have access to them). They are some units that were common in a geographical area but not unique to a civilization.

- Slow, melee units that are stronger in front of them (increased even more when defending against cavalry) but weaker on their rear: phalanx, pikemen.

- Slow, range 1 or melee: heavy javelineers, heavy lead javelineers, pike, and shot.

- Fast, melee: knight (noble men-at-arms in Europe, will usually have better equipment since they are wealthier.)

- Slow, melee: halberdiers, great swordsmen, poleaxemen.

- Etc.

With my idea that units can be on the corners of tiles, a range of 1 is half a tile, a range of 2 a full tile (there can still be 2 units between your unit and the one you attack), and a range of 3 a tile and a half.

No GDR, they make no sense. We will never build giant bipedal weapons. We will big giant ships, huge planes, big tanks, and maybe someday huge spaceships, but never giant bipeds (it doesn’t make any sense to do so, it is strictly less good than a tank.)

Range units should have stronger damage when attacking from a smaller range (since missiles slow down when moving), but units with a smaller range should still be stronger at their range, so they are useful.

Important changes to be more historically correct are that chariot should be used for archers in combat and transport, but not for heavy cavalry. Also, spearmen should be the basic melee units. They were the most common and basic type of soldiers, not anti-cavalry units. Also, all gun units should be ranged units.

A lot more governments (one for most policy types and levels: tribal/ancient, classical/middle-age/renaissance [need writing, except for Inca], modern/contemporary [need printing], future [need artificial intelligence]) and more policy types. No wildcard policy (though there should be still wildcard slots for flexibility). The policy types could be:

- Militaristic (unit production, cost, XP, strength, etc.): Chiefdom, Empire, Fascism, Fully Automated Warfare State.

- Diplomatic (trade, diplomacy, and alliance): _, Confederation, Multi-National Union, World Union

- Rationalist (science): _, _, Technocracy, AI-government

- Spiritual (faith): God-King, Theocracy, Religious Republic, _

- Authoritarianism (production): _, Absolute monarchy, Communist party state, Corporate Statism (a single corporation controls everything)

- Competitive market (money): _, Merchant republic, Liberal Democracy, Cooperative State (every worker is a member of a cooperative or an independent worker, so everybody is a participant in the competitive market).

- Socialism (amenities): _, _, Social Democracy, Fully automated welfare.

- Nationalism (nationality, loyalty, and stability): _, Classical Republic, Nation-State, _

- Agrarian (food, land claim, growth): Elder council, Feudalism, Conservative Democracy, _

- Touristic (culture, tourism): _, City-state (non-imperialistic city-state like Florence), Microstate, Theme Park State

- Consensual (patriotism): Tribalism, Direct Democracy, Proportional Democracy, Statistical Democracy (statistically significant samples of the population are randomly selected to debate and make decisions).

- Liberty (era score, used both for getting golden age and score victory): Primitivism, _, Anarcho-collectivism, Anarcho-communism.

Each policy should have a cost, though they'll still generally be good. The most common cost should be money (for things like public education, public housing, professional army, etc.), but some can also cost amenities (like slavery, serfdom, corvée, forced labor, expropriation, etc.), faith (like state atheism), or reduce military cap (like military neutrality), etc.

Loyalty depends on nationality (starts at 100% when founded or 0% when conquered, can be modified by immigration, policies, or projects), religion, policies, and spy missions. It doesn’t depend directly on the population of nearby cities. If a city is disloyal to its owner (another civ has more loyalty), it doesn’t become a free city, but it gives half its science, gold, faith, culture to the civ it is loyal to, and the civ it is loyal too can use it to create military units. Production is still controlled by the civ that controls the city. A civilization doesn’t die until it has no loyal cities and no units. Loyalty goes down in all cities by some amount each time a policy or a government is changed. The amount of loyalty loss (and also the number of cities that will be disloyal and the risk of civil war) is indicated before one accepts the change and depends on the number of policies changed and how different are the governments.

Stability is based on average loyalty. If it is less than 50%, there is a random chance to have a civil war each turn. If there is a civil war, an AI is created and given half the cities (the most disloyal) and half the gold and faith. This AI is automatically at war with the civ it came from. They have the same nationality (nationality is a component of loyalty).

Also, each time a government is changed or a policy changed, loyalty should go down in every city (so stability too). Loyalty loss should depend on how much different is the new government. So governments of the same type don't cause a big drop, but the most opposite governments cause a big drop and have a high risk of causing a civil war. For the policy, it could be a 5 or 10 loyalty loss each time you change a policy unless it is for a successor policy. It will take a few turns for the stability to go back to normal, so you can't change the policies too frequently without having cities becoming disloyal or even having a civil war.

We should get 0 bonus for dark ages, 1 bonus for normal ages, and 2 for golden ages. There should not be any heroic age or dark age policy which makes the best move is to alternate dark ages and heroic ages. 25% of civs should get golden, 50% normal, and 25% dark rather than a threshold. Also, era scores should be the only source of score for score victory and the trigger for score victory should be the end of the future age which is triggered automatically when enough era scores have been obtained. So the score victory is a real victory that one can go for. In dark ages, one should be able to get 2 dedications to double era score but that doesn’t count for the score victory. For normal ages, it should be 1 dedication.

Bonuses could be:

- Expansion: bonuses to the production of settlers, initial buildings, and population of new cities, sea travel, Great explorers.

- Militarist: bonuses to military production, upgrade, maintenance cost and strength, great general and great admiral.

- Growth: bonuses to population growth and amenities.

- Science: bonuses to science yield and Great scientists.

- Culture: bonuses to culture and tourism yield, and Great writers, artists, musicians.

- Monumental: bonuses to wonder production and Great engineers.

- Merchant: bonuses to trade, money yield, Great merchants, and Great explorers.

- Influence: bonuses to influence, favor, religious spread, Great prophets, Great theologians, and Great diplomats.

Dedications should be thematic for each era and based on those categories:

- Expansion: settling new cities, especially on new continents or far away.

- Militarist: Win battles and conquer cities and civilizations.

- Growth: Be the first to reach a population threshold.

- Science: Be the first to discover new technology.

- Culture: Be the first to discover a new civics or getting some threshold of tourism.

- Monumental: Build a wonder.

- Merchant: Be the first to reach some amount of money from trade.

- Influence: Convert a city to your religion, become the suzerain of a city-state, get a diplomatic resolution you proposed approved.


Civilizations that have 4 unique units, 4 unique districts, and 4 leaders (4 could change, but I think it’s reasonable) that span the history of their location and have the name of a contemporary country or a region. For example:

- US: representative of North American native tribes, 13 colonies, industrial US, contemporary US.

- Mexico: representative of Mayas, Aztec, New Spain, Mexico

- Peru: representative of Inca, Vice-Royalty of Peru, modern Peru.

- UK: representative of British celts, Anglo-Saxon kingdoms, Middle Age England, Colonial Britain.

- France: representative of Gaul, Franks, Middle Age France, Revolutionary France.

- Spain: Iberians, Visigoths, al-Andalus, colonial Spain.

- Portugal: Lusitanian, Galicia, colonial Portugal.

- Germany: Germanic people, Holy Roman Empire, Prussia, modern Germany.

- Italy: Rome, Papal State, Italian Republics, modern Italy.

- Greece: Mycenaean, Athens, Sparta, Macedon.

- Turkey: Hittite, Byzantine, Ottomans, contemporary Turkey.

- North Africa: Cartage, Vandal kingdom, Berber kingdoms, French Colonial North Africa

- Egypt: Ancient Egypt, Ptolemaic Egypt, Fatimid Caliphate, modern Egypt.

- Mesopotamia: Sumer, Babylon, Seleucid Empire, Abbasid Caliphate.

- Iran: Achaemenid Empire, Parthian Empire, Sasanian Empire, Samanid Empire.

- Russia: Rus, Muscovy, Russian Empire, Soviet Union.

- Eurasian Steppe: Huns, Mongol empire, Golden Horde, Turkish tribes

- Greater India: Indus Valley, Maurya Empire, Mughal Empire, British India.

- China: Zhou dynasty, Han dynasty, Ming dynasty, contemporary China

Have a spherical map. One can have a spherical map by starting with an icosahedron, putting a pentagon on each corner (12) with the desired tile size, and then putting hexagonal tiles on the rest of the surface. It is easy to then deform it to look like a sphere (the deformation is small because an icosahedron is already close to a sphere). For the 12 pentagons, 2 will be the North Pole and South Pole natural wonders, and the 10 other ones can be hidden in mountain range or ocean. Discovering the North Pole and the South Pole can give era score and bonus yield.

After the discovery of The Enlightenment, atheism should start spreading naturally and progressively replace the religions.
 
Last edited:

Haig

Deity
Joined
Aug 3, 2010
Messages
2,832
Location
Finland
Nice ideas, I also think that Eurekas could be harder but more rewarding.
I like the idea for Diplo victory too.

Maybe too many different units, but good ideas there too.
 

jsciv69

Prince
Joined
Jul 16, 2016
Messages
305
Location
Earth
Historic Accuracy: By about 10,000 years ago much of the planet had been inhabited. The 1st settlements arose from this time thanks to the rise of agriculture. So maybe a more realistic starting point that reflects this.
Realistic graphics: I think most would like to abandon the Robot Chicken-like graphics and animations of Civ VI. In this regard Civilization VII should take a page from games like SimCity, or Cities Skylines as a model.
Black Market: This may be the called the dark industry. But The Black Market is as real as any legit enterprises.
Ancient and Classic Eras; These are sped through in Civilization. Why not allow more time for Civs to develop and grow and be better prepared for the Industrial and beyond Eras.
The Fleet: To me Civ III is still the best of the franchise. Civ VII should model it's fleet system from Civ III. Modern and beyond Era's Forming full Naval battle groups should be unlocked by The Combined Arms Tech. The Combined Fleet consist of Carriers, Battleships, Destroyers, Cruisers, Subs, and Transport/Amphibious Ships.
Map Reveal: In Civ III this was achieved by obtaining a World Map from another Civ. This should be available much earlier than waiting for Satellites.
Sprawled City: Instead of districts lets bring back the sprawled look from Civ IV.
 

HorseshoeHermit

20% accurate as usual, Morty
Joined
Apr 5, 2013
Messages
1,447
Location
Canada
I would like it to be a bit more realistic and also have a better combat system. It also needs to be balanced for both tall and wide play. Some ideas are:
I like it. I have questions about some points. When it is clearer, we'll see about sorting the concept for better browsing.


Simultaneous play allows for better multiplayer and better AI since the AI can plan at the same time as the player. The AI needs to be stronger. Use machine learning. On high difficulty, the AI evaluates more positions and takes more time.
Can a machine learning model be exported into a configuration of a conventional program? And who will get the money to buy this processing?
Also, I don't understand what you mean by the AI can plan at the same time. Do you mean the AI is running its algo to pick its moves while the player is picking its moves? In this case, the AI still can't move at the same time as the player. You'd have concurrency problems in single player. That sounds terrible. You could make it so there's a planning phase and an action phase, so that moves don't happen until you process that turn. That would make the decision space for the AI even stranger, though.

Improved diplomacy:
[...] It should also be possible to attack and pillage without declaring war (just lose reputation and gain grievance) as it has been pretty standard for all history and is still common now. Open borders for military units should be limited to a specific number of units and a fixed duration. People don’t allow free for all open borders. On the other hand, civilians and religious units should have open border by default (Close border to civilian should be a diplomatic action that acquire grievance and that one doesn’t have at the beginning). Also, not respecting open borders should be allowed, it just causes grievance and loss of reputation (if a peace treaty has been signed).
So, I'm thinking about what would be a civilian unit in your game, since it looks like workers don't exist, but engineers do. You are okay with grievances and reputation being the system for how A.I.s consider the player attitude? That is, none of these systems exist at all for player-player interactions? Or, are these violations published to other players?

Rather than having UN meetings (which should not happen before the atomic era realistically), everybody should be allowed to propose joint actions at any time as soon as they have discovered another civilization and have discovered “writing”. Joint actions should be realistic and anybody with diplomatic relations with the player proposing the action can choose to join it, fight it, or refuse to participate. They can be: conquer a civilization, defend a civilization, defend a city-state, embargo a civilization (refuse trade and pillage its trade routes), fight a heresy, promote a religion, etc. Actively participating in a joint action should improve reputation, while joining and doing nothing should reduce your reputation.
I cannot agree with this enough. Would being overly active in the U.N. be a possible thing? Would you be able to exhaust the opponent that way?

City-states should give their culture and science to the civilizations divided in proportion to the influence, in addition to a suzerain bonus rather than giving bonuses to buildings (which is too good for wide play and is not realistic). You should get influence on a city for doing something that impacts them rather than random quests. So things like trade route, religious spread, gift of gold, envoy units, spy, gift of units, gift of great work, military protection.
"something that impacts them" can allow you to donate what is to you, junk, like a great work you happen to have but are not playing for those points. I think it's more important for the CS to be less flighty in changing its diplo stance with major civs. That is to say, it needs at least one more factor than a influence number. Perhaps it changes its diplo status at each "election", so that no one is surprised by flipping mid-turn.

No buildings and most improvements are replaced by districts that are repeatable in a single city. All wonders are built on a district.
By no buildings do you mean there are no items that are added to a city as structures in that city? And for that matter.... what IS a city? Just a focal point for claiming territory, a nexus for district yields? On that note...

Here's the big stuff. The districts. My takeaway from this list is that the general pattern is, a district/improvement is something that goes on a tile, within borders, which "generates" [a thing] based on [tile features]. Generate can mean accruing a stockpile but it can also mean statically upping a score like amenities. You haven't said though... what is production? If the districts are all the city improvements, what are hammers doing?
And continuing the above, if these yields are not local, but things like science, or another empire currency, then there isn't even an association with the city that is... "working" it? How do you see that panning out?

Districts can be built on top of another which destroys the previous one or on top of a resource (by default, so without needing a mod).
It's already a bad move, but maybe this should make some citizens complain briefly? Or cause poverty? I dunno.

There should be projects to improve districts and give them more citizen slots. That will improve tall play. Also, citizen slots need to be good like in civ 4 and 5, not useless like in civ 6.
This is an astoundingly effective thought.

To get a Wonder, one must first get wonder points for the specific kind of wonder by building district projects. Then they claim the wonder, and they are the only one who can build it. Unused wonder points remain useful as they are multiple wonders in the same categories. Categories of wonder could be:
If you spend your points to get them, then an effect of this will be a player would tend not to get a wonder of the same type rather than a different type. But also, each type will probably see a wonder from each distinct era go to some player.
I mean, I like the idea of preparation to make a wonder, and of not doing the race to build a one of a kind thing. The economics of the points now needs to be clarified.

Additional great people type:
So you like the unique great people system?

- Great scientist’s Eureka should be only theirs. Euclid should be the only way to get Eureka for mathematics and Alan Turing the only way to get Eureka for computer for example.
What about Lovelace, Babbage, Church, and von Neumann? :p

Cities should acquire the closest tiles in movement cost first rather than absolute range. So their land will grow along rivers, coast, and roads first rather than being circular. It makes much more sense historically than a city will use lands connected to it by rivers, sea, or roads.
I like no fixed tile-usage range, but, again, what IS a city in your view. What makes one city not another city that's close by, for example?

Growth should be based on a percentage growth that depends on health. Hunger reduces health, but having a food surplus does not create people. Food surplus is automatically sent to nearby cities with a penalty due to distance (maybe -10% per movement cost first, but is reduced by technology such as refrigeration, and usage of horses or oil). There is also growth from immigration from cities with low amenities to cities with higher amenities.
So health, which will be hard to come by, will make growth quantities about the same everywhere (proportionally) , up to the limit of deteriorating health. So then food, if you add a lot of it, just addresses health up to satiety, then (inefficiently) feeds other cities**, both allowing a food hub to exist but encouraging you to not do that if food IS available locally. But then possibly switching around to disincentives if technology makes the efficiency costs go away.

**I really like this because the 10% number is a knob you can turn with technology and the connectivity factors you refer to , like roads and water.

Engineers can build aqueducts, sewers, canals, roads, and walls on the boundary of the tiles. They can also build forts and some other military improvements on the tiles, which generate defense and XP for military units. And they can transport production by being built in a city and expanded in another city center. They should also be able to build siege weapons. They can be created with a variable amount of production and they disappear when the production is used up. Aqueducts, sewers, canals, walls, forts, etc. need a specific amount of production rather than being built. They cost money per turn.
What's an engineer? A civilian unit? How soon are they available? Transporting production doesn't seem right with that mechanic.
Do these engineers have charges? They're different from whatever it is that builds districts? But if districts are made with hammers , and engineers can become hammers again, then now you have a way for a city to give hammers to itself?

I'm very intrigued by building those edifices on the borders of tiles.

More terrains, based on real climate. One needs to have discovered a staple plant adapted to this climate to create a farm, or an animal adapted to this climate for a pasture, or a luxury plant adapted to this climate for a plantation.
More terrains yes. But what would that "discover a plant" thing be like. What do you have to do? Wander around, get lucky? Bring a surveyor into the biome? It seems what you want is to make just a -bit- of a barrier to sending settlers willy-nilly across the four corners of creation and getting instant rewards from settlement farms and the like. So what you have to do is encounter the new biome, force a waiting period, then your settlement can have the farm. So I guess you find the biome, bring a plant to civilization, learn to plant it, and now your settlements can do it. The bringing part could be skipped if the Archaeology-like minigame is tedious, it's not like you want it to interact with the military layer of the map. "Learn to plant" seems to be the key here. Something that an existing settlement of yours has to "do" with the plant, taking up some time, even 1 turn, is what we need. But why can't the frontier city itself, just planted in the virgin and mysterious climes, be the one that learns how to do it?

Could this be a role for an outpost -> settlement period? The city has to work its own tile as a pseudo-farm to get to a city, and so, you have to get there with the agriculture already?



The units can be on the center of a tile or one of the 6 corners, and one must pass through one of the corners before getting to another tile (equivalent to zoom out by 2, but only for military and unit movement purposes).
Representing this to the player might be harder than representing it to the AI. Is your idea that the corners don't have "tile features" themselves, so it's unimportant whether they belong to two productivity zones or not? 'Cause if they have features, you might as well actually have the 2x hex tiling, just with two kinds of tiles. Also do you literally mean corners instead of sides? Never heard of that before. So, to block a hex, you would have to blockade two corners touching the two touching hexes?

Either way, if the "true" hexes are where the goods are, what you're making is a tiling of triangles, a sort of highway for military formations, but with juicy hex yields between any ring of six of them, also allowing leaping around that ring.

Units can move all together in a formation. Only the movement cost of the center unit is considered (so the other follows while ignoring terrain unless it’s a mountain, then they move in the formation to fit, but still the same center unit determines the movement cost).
Exploitable.

Military and civilian units cost strategic resources, people, and gold, and potentially production (mostly for complex units like tanks and planes, simple warriors do not cost any production), and then have a very high maintenance cost in money. The limit on the number of units is mostly based on money and on a military supply which is a percentage of the population depending on policies (one cannot transform all his people into soldiers even with a lot of gold). Production is mostly for districts.
Aha! Cool. But if production is districts, don't I eventually make all the districts? Does this mean that the part about projects to enhance a district are really really important? Of course, an alternative is to make a district quite a momentous achievement and costed so as to not realistically coat all territory in them for quite some time. You have to balance both tall/wide there, but also districts/other stuff. Unless there really is not much other stuff? So production isn't even quite "production" it's very specifically "development", as in infrastructure. Public works. If so, that means *sources* of hammers should be re-evaluated as appropriate to contribute to this kind of thing.
I super super super like money and civics deciding how you can field a military. I know for a fact others are in love with this too. Everybody wants their multiple governments. Even Caveman2Cosmos doesn't actually create -that- wild of a system for customizing your military civic, but it -looks- like it does. Mercenary army? Professional army? Conscripts? Primitive warrior society? Warrior caste? Mmmm juicy yum.

We can’t use wood and rocks to build soldiers. On the other hand, districts cannot be built with money.
The hammer/coinbucks relationship is very different for you than what has come before. Will there be anything which will have some exchange rate into or out of money? You mention a pre-currency substitute, but keep in mind currency was not the beginning of money. However the purpose you mention for it is a good one. Just something to work as the limit of military mobilisation when we have a simple economy.

Soldiers can be sent back to a city after the war or kept for XP. They accumulate XP slowly when fortified in a military improvement or district.
Is that just to keep pace with warmongers, or is there a cap for that, or...? Shouldn't this be civic-dependent if it corresponds to professional army / warrior caste stuff?

Spies can be created as soon as writing is discovered. They are limited by their gold cost rather than by a strict limit. They can move as units and can attack military units (by poisoning or disorganizing them) in addition to attacking districts.
Something just feels off about having a carpet of agents fulfilling the unified will of the empire. To me agents are simultaneously representative of the most patriotic form of service, yet are also the parties of the double agent phenomenon. But I have a romantic view of it instead of a learned one. I am sure though that this system would not work out. The spy as a hidden figure doesn't make sense , and even if he's visible, why is a spy , uniquely, able to disrupt enemy maneuvers and not, your soldiers? In Civ4 we begin to model the passive monitoring of other civilizations with the Espionage slider output. An individual spy is someone coming out of a specific cultural concept and whose existence as an operative within a foreign territory depends on the background conditions of intermingling of the two peoples.

Trade routes only exist to link luxury to cities, and luxury only exists for that. Luxuries generate money based on their amount and rarity in all the cities they can reach by trade route minus a transport fee. Routes can be created by a project. Each city has some projects each connecting it to a nearby city (maybe 6 projects, one for each of the closest cities, including foreign). So roads don’t have to be built with engineers if they connect cities. The main goal of connecting cities is to trade luxury.
Cities can build they own roads. And engineers can. Okay. And trade routes are only money. So they represent caravans and enterprise? The food distribution you mention is just a system that uses roads and connections automatically? And sharing production is something you've mentioned, a unit that packages hammers for another city. It's just that... one benefit of a given item/asset having multiple uses is that it means the investments that grow or enhance that kind of asset are a flexible tactic. Getting "more trade routes" in Civ5 is not "more money, with extra steps" but instead another tool that is of definite positive utility, which you can decide later. So trade routes just being money right now is, money, with extra steps.

Strategic resources are traded in a world market where everybody can put a sell and buy price for some number of resources. Trade only happens when the selling price + transport fee is below the buy price (the cost will be the average between the 2).
Certainly a handy place to start in terms of QoL for using the trade screen. But , I kind of like trading just to favor one player, like a good little prince. Here this wouldnt be possible. You could say it's a solution to (one specific aspect of) collusion which can be a problem for free for all games.

Also, many strategic resources have other usages in addition to their current units:
Good. What do you have to do to have a strategic resource though? You can buy it. Are we just protecting the infrastructure around the source tiles still?

When a battle is won. We should get some resources and some prisoners, which can be ransomed for goal or forced to work to get extra population. Some civilizations or policies can allow to execute them for faith or patriotism bonuses.
So how fast is the march of history compared to military maneuvers? What does upgrading military technology look like? You emphasize military at the tactical level a lot in your details. I agree that Civ5 really misses, with how, for example, the settlement phase of play is over basically by the time classical armies can even exist. A different experience I had with the Anno Domini mod, in which warring or the implication of tile control is constant and settling happens at least for half the game, shows me that it's way way better if we have the pacing of our game allow the same thing. But it's easier said than done. Anno Domini, just like Old World, covered a certain span of history and technology and stretches it out to a full game. Civ7 covers all history.

How do we get enough time for maneuvers and decisions "colored" by a certain era to matter, while also not being bogged in that era and each era forever , in a 500+ turn game?

Divide the ancient era into the Stone Age era, Bronze Age era, and Iron Age era.
What does this mean though?

A wide civics tree. For example, could start with 3 civics (agrarian, pastoral, and seafaring) rather than 1, then expand in width. It is not expected to complete them all. Contains special military units, special districts, wonders, in addition of policies and governments (They can also require some technologies).
Cool. What is start with 3 civics though. If they are your starting abilities, then calling them 1 or 3 doesn't mean anything? Are these mix and match by civilization? Are they three separate trees - but you already said they're wide and sparse (not filled in any one game).


Important changes to be more historically correct are that chariot should be used for archers in combat and transport, but not for heavy cavalry. Also, spearmen should be the basic melee units. They were the most common and basic type of soldiers, not anti-cavalry units. Also, all gun units should be ranged units.
The concept needed here is for "engagement type" to be independent of "foot soldier" type. One type designates what can hold ground, advance into routed foes, and occupy a city. The other type describes combat results for different engagements.


Loyalty depends on nationality (starts at 100% when founded or 0% when conquered, can be modified by immigration, policies, or projects), religion, policies, and spy missions. It doesn’t depend directly on the population of nearby cities. If a city is disloyal to its owner (another civ has more loyalty), it doesn’t become a free city, but it gives half its science, gold, faith, culture to the civ it is loyal to, and the civ it is loyal too can use it to create military units. Production is still controlled by the civ that controls the city.
It's cool how the idea of ripping apart recruitment from infrastructure allows that split-control situation.

Stability is based on average loyalty. If it is less than 50%, there is a random chance to have a civil war each turn. If there is a civil war, an AI is created and given half the cities (the most disloyal) and half the gold and faith. This AI is automatically at war with the civ it came from. They have the same nationality (nationality is a component of loyalty).
Penalty for wide play? What about a non-belligerent separation from the empire? And , conversely, couldnt there be a stability problem not arising from any covetous loyalty to another power, but just dissatisfaction with being ruled at all? A revolutionary separation for independence (a new side in the game) ?

We should get 0 bonus for dark ages, 1 bonus for normal ages, and 2 for golden ages. There should not be any heroic age or dark age policy which makes the best move is to alternate dark ages and heroic ages. 25% of civs should get golden, 50% normal, and 25% dark rather than a threshold.
Sometimes nothing is golden for anybody, though. Maybe a requirement for golden age and a cap on it?

Bonuses could be:

- Expansion: bonuses to the production of settlers, initial buildings, and population of new cities, sea travel, Great explorers.
- Militarist: bonuses to military production, upgrade, maintenance cost and strength, great general and great admiral.
- Growth: bonuses to population growth and amenities.
- Science: bonuses to science yield and Great scientists.
- Culture: bonuses to culture and tourism yield, and Great writers, artists, musicians.
- Monumental: bonuses to wonder production and Great engineers.
- Merchant: bonuses to trade, money yield, Great merchants, and Great explorers.
- Influence: bonuses to influence, favor, religious spread, Great prophets, Great theologians, and Great diplomats.

Dedications should be thematic for each era and based on those categories:

- Expansion: settling new cities, especially on new continents or far away.
- Militarist: Win battles and conquer cities and civilizations.
- Growth: Be the first to reach a population threshold.
- Science: Be the first to discover new technology.
- Culture: Be the first to discover a new civics or getting some threshold of tourism.
- Monumental: Build a wonder.
- Merchant: Be the first to reach some amount of money from trade.
- Influence: Convert a city to your religion, become the suzerain of a city-state, get a diplomatic resolution you proposed approved.
So bonuses and the dedication conditions are the same stuff? It's not a feed in-feed out thing, it's a feedback loop?

After the discovery of The Enlightenment, atheism should start spreading naturally and progressively replace the religions.
Could be milked in DLC. :p
 
Last edited:

DarkPhoton

Chieftain
Joined
Jul 15, 2021
Messages
9
Can a machine learning model be exported into a configuration of a conventional program? And who will get the money to buy this processing?
Also, I don't understand what you mean by the AI can plan at the same time. Do you mean the AI is running its algo to pick its moves while the player is picking its moves? In this case, the AI still can't move at the same time as the player. You'd have concurrency problems in single player. That sounds terrible. You could make it so there's a planning phase and an action phase, so that moves don't happen until you process that turn. That would make the decision space for the AI even stranger, though.
The machine learning model would be part of the game. It can run on CPU or GPU. I think it will get more and more common to include machine learning to games. I know Age of Empire 4 is planning to have one.
I think the best is to have everything but combat at the same time. We could also do that the movements are planned, then executed all at the same with some sort of initiative to decide who goes first, but it has been tried in other games and it seems generally people prefer simultaneous play. Yes, it is possible that it is best to wait that the other makes its move first, but most of them it will probably be the opposite, it's best to get to the good tile first. Combats are planned, then executed at the same time. Since there's no movement for combat and no need for initiative, I think people won't have an issue with it.

So, I'm thinking about what would be a civilian unit in your game, since it looks like workers don't exist, but engineers do. You are okay with grievances and reputation being the system for how A.I.s consider the player attitude? That is, none of these systems exist at all for player-player interactions? Or, are these violations published to other players?
Yes, settlers and great people are kept. The builders are not needed because all their jobs can be done easily from the city side. I think it makes more sense and is more convenient to have that the city build a farm rather than build a builder which then builds a farm. Engineers are needed for things that can be done outside the city limit, and I think they are a good way to move production too, but it's not free since they have a maintenance cost and they need to walk, so it can take some turns.

I cannot agree with this enough. Would being overly active in the U.N. be a possible thing? Would you be able to exhaust the opponent that way?
After asking for joint action, there should be a number of turns before you can ask it again if it fails. There should be the same thing for bilateral diplomatic action because nobody likes to refuse the same thing every turn.

"something that impacts them" can allow you to donate what is to you, junk, like a great work you happen to have but are not playing for those points. I think it's more important for the CS to be less flighty in changing its diplo stance with major civs. That is to say, it needs at least one more factor than a influence number. Perhaps it changes its diplo status at each "election", so that no one is surprised by flipping mid-turn.
I think it;s fine to give great works. It's still something you had to gain and you could potentially have sold it. Obviously, you would only give great works if you aren't going for tourism so it's not an important yield, but it's not completely junk either. The best way to avoid a city-state being flaky is to have a huge lead in influence over the competition. Since the city-state will give you yield in proportion of influence, it's always good to have more.

By no buildings do you mean there are no items that are added to a city as structures in that city? And for that matter.... what IS a city? Just a focal point for claiming territory, a nexus for district yields? On that note...

Here's the big stuff. The districts. My takeaway from this list is that the general pattern is, a district/improvement is something that goes on a tile, within borders, which "generates" [a thing] based on [tile features]. Generate can mean accruing a stockpile but it can also mean statically upping a score like amenities. You haven't said though... what is production? If the districts are all the city improvements, what are hammers doing?
And continuing the above, if these yields are not local, but things like science, or another empire currency, then there isn't even an association with the city that is... "working" it? How do you see that panning out?
A city is a group of tiles that share production, food, citizens, and amenities. Other yields are shared globally. The hammers are needed to build districts and projects. I don't think that buildings make sense for an empire management game besides very important ones like wonders. Buildings are things that your people are building themselves, what's planned are the big things like districts. Production is the basic materials wood, stone, clay, sand (for concrete), etc. Strategic resources, food, and money are accumulated, the rest are not.

It's already a bad move, but maybe this should make some citizens complain briefly? Or cause poverty? I dunno.
Replacing a town will cause the amenities to drop because the town generates them. I'm not sure if we need an additional penalty. For some districts, replacing them can be a normal thing, like farms for example. Almost everything will be a district including what was an improvement before. Basic districts like farms will also be pretty cheap.

This is an astoundingly effective thought.
Thanks

If you spend your points to get them, then an effect of this will be a player would tend not to get a wonder of the same type rather than a different type. But also, each type will probably see a wonder from each distinct era go to some player.
I mean, I like the idea of preparation to make a wonder, and of not doing the race to build a one of a kind thing. The economics of the points now needs to be clarified.
The player also decides which kind of wonder they want by choosing which district project they do. Someone who focuses on science will build mostly science-based districts and do projects to improve them so they won't have many points for other wonder types.

So you like the unique great people system?


What about Lovelace, Babbage, Church, and von Neumann? :p
Any of them (and Alan Turing, and probably others) could have the eureka for computer, but only one should be in the game. Mostly, there shouldn't be multiple ways to get an eureka because then it makes the great person useless if you already have it. (Which was usually the case for Alan Turing in civ 6 since computer's eureka was trivial)

I like no fixed tile-usage range, but, again, what IS a city in your view. What makes one city not another city that's close by, for example?
Mostly the same thing as in civ 6 besides having a larger range. All districts are built by a city and are part of it unless you swap them with another city afterward. Cities are used for food, production, amenities, number of citizens. And the distance of a tile to a city can make that the city needs to consume horses or oil to use it. The main reasons to exchange tiles will be to boost production, food, or amenities in a city, or to have more citizens to use the slots of a district.

So health, which will be hard to come by, will make growth quantities about the same everywhere (proportionally) , up to the limit of deteriorating health. So then food, if you add a lot of it, just addresses health up to satiety, then (inefficiently) feeds other cities**, both allowing a food hub to exist but encouraging you to not do that if food IS available locally. But then possibly switching around to disincentives if technology makes the efficiency costs go away.

**I really like this because the 10% number is a knob you can turn with technology and the connectivity factors you refer to , like roads and water.
Yes, but growth will also be modified by migrations which will be caused by amenities imbalance. So you can increase the growth of a city by boosting its amenities.

What's an engineer? A civilian unit? How soon are they available? Transporting production doesn't seem right with that mechanic.
Do these engineers have charges? They're different from whatever it is that builds districts? But if districts are made with hammers , and engineers can become hammers again, then now you have a way for a city to give hammers to itself?

I'm very intrigued by building those edifices on the borders of tiles.
They are civilians. It's a bit like a builder or a military engineer in civ 6, but they build forts, siege units and infrastructure that can go between tiles. They are available pretty early (with masonry probably). Though they get more actions as you get more technology. I think it makes sense to use more the border between the tiles, things like walls and aqueduct should go there so you can still have a farm or other thing in the tile themselves. Right now, military infrastructure (fort) isn't that great because it doesn't improve the tile and is only useful when you are invaded.
The city can hammer itself, but that's only useful if you have nothing to build now and you'll have to pay the maintenance fee. It's like stockpiling construction material.

More terrains yes. But what would that "discover a plant" thing be like. What do you have to do? Wander around, get lucky? Bring a surveyor into the biome? It seems what you want is to make just a -bit- of a barrier to sending settlers willy-nilly across the four corners of creation and getting instant rewards from settlement farms and the like. So what you have to do is encounter the new biome, force a waiting period, then your settlement can have the farm. So I guess you find the biome, bring a plant to civilization, learn to plant it, and now your settlements can do it. The bringing part could be skipped if the Archaeology-like minigame is tedious, it's not like you want it to interact with the military layer of the map. "Learn to plant" seems to be the key here. Something that an existing settlement of yours has to "do" with the plant, taking up some time, even 1 turn, is what we need. But why can't the frontier city itself, just planted in the virgin and mysterious climes, be the one that learns how to do it?

Could this be a role for an outpost -> settlement period? The city has to work its own tile as a pseudo-farm to get to a city, and so, you have to get there with the agriculture already?
The domesticable plants and animals will be distributed at the beginning of the game. You wander around to find them, build a city close to them and then exploit the tile to learn them. You can learn to plant them from a civilization that already knows them too.

Representing this to the player might be harder than representing it to the AI. Is your idea that the corners don't have "tile features" themselves, so it's unimportant whether they belong to two productivity zones or not? 'Cause if they have features, you might as well actually have the 2x hex tiling, just with two kinds of tiles. Also do you literally mean corners instead of sides? Never heard of that before. So, to block a hex, you would have to blockade two corners touching the two touching hexes?

Either way, if the "true" hexes are where the goods are, what you're making is a tiling of triangles, a sort of highway for military formations, but with juicy hex yields between any ring of six of them, also allowing leaping around that ring.
The hexes will look the same as before. The corners are there only for military units. It's still a hexagonal tiling actually, each corner could be a hexagon. The point is to increase the space for military units more than the civilian space (which are the center of the hexagons). Yes, to block the direct path between 2 hexes, you need both corners. Each corner could be a hex and it would be the same as before, but then we'd need to have districts that use 7 tiles and everything that I said is on the side (walls, rivers, aqueduct, etc) can be on the side tiles (that wouldn't be exactly the same as I said, since those side tiles would play the role of both sides and corners). With my system, military units can be in the middle of a tile or in a corner between 3 tiles. From the center of a tile, they have access to the 6 corners in 1 movement. From a corner, they have access to 3 centers and 3 corners.

Exploitable.
That needs to be balanced. Formations will have a limited radius. But it will make the movement of troops much better than in civ 5 and civ 6. Also realistically even large armies don't typically have issues following a road.

Aha! Cool. But if production is districts, don't I eventually make all the districts? Does this mean that the part about projects to enhance a district are really really important? Of course, an alternative is to make a district quite a momentous achievement and costed so as to not realistically coat all territory in them for quite some time. You have to balance both tall/wide there, but also districts/other stuff. Unless there really is not much other stuff? So production isn't even quite "production" it's very specifically "development", as in infrastructure. Public works. If so, that means *sources* of hammers should be re-evaluated as appropriate to contribute to this kind of thing.
I super super super like money and civics deciding how you can field a military. I know for a fact others are in love with this too. Everybody wants their multiple governments. Even Caveman2Cosmos doesn't actually create -that- wild of a system for customizing your military civic, but it -looks- like it does. Mercenary army? Professional army? Conscripts? Primitive warrior society? Warrior caste? Mmmm juicy yum.
There will be a lot of different types of districts, so you can't make them all unless you're very productive. Also, it will often be better to do projects to improve a district you focus on rather than building them all (which also cost a lot of tiles).

The hammer/coinbucks relationship is very different for you than what has come before. Will there be anything which will have some exchange rate into or out of money? You mention a pre-currency substitute, but keep in mind currency was not the beginning of money. However the purpose you mention for it is a good one. Just something to work as the limit of military mobilisation when we have a simple economy.
No hammer/coinbucks direct exchange, but potentially you could buy engineers from other civ and then bring them to your city. I don't think an exchange rate between each civ money is needed.

Is that just to keep pace with warmongers, or is there a cap for that, or...? Shouldn't this be civic-dependent if it corresponds to professional army / warrior caste stuff?
Yes, it should be civic dependant. Retiring soldiers give you back their population cost and you stop paying gold, so it's pretty useful. Also, soldiers can easily be brought back at any time, they'll just have no XP. So a more warmonger civs will keep a large standing army while most civ might prefer a small one to just keep the borders in check.

Something just feels off about having a carpet of agents fulfilling the unified will of the empire. To me agents are simultaneously representative of the most patriotic form of service, yet are also the parties of the double agent phenomenon. But I have a romantic view of it instead of a learned one. I am sure though that this system would not work out. The spy as a hidden figure doesn't make sense , and even if he's visible, why is a spy , uniquely, able to disrupt enemy maneuvers and not, your soldiers? In Civ4 we begin to model the passive monitoring of other civilizations with the Espionage slider output. An individual spy is someone coming out of a specific cultural concept and whose existence as an operative within a foreign territory depends on the background conditions of intermingling of the two peoples.
Spies will be invisible to the other players. I think the exploration soldiers should also be invisible and able to disrupt the enemy from behind but will be attacked if an enemy troop goes in the same position as them. Spies are hidden because they are seen by other people as regular people. We could potentially add a loyalty mechanism to spies and make it possible to turn them traitors.

Cities can build they own roads. And engineers can. Okay. And trade routes are only money. So they represent caravans and enterprise? The food distribution you mention is just a system that uses roads and connections automatically? And sharing production is something you've mentioned, a unit that packages hammers for another city. It's just that... one benefit of a given item/asset having multiple uses is that it means the investments that grow or enhance that kind of asset are a flexible tactic. Getting "more trade routes" in Civ5 is not "more money, with extra steps" but instead another tool that is of definite positive utility, which you can decide later. So trade routes just being money right now is, money, with extra steps.
Roads are used both for trade and units movements. Roads between cities will be built by a city to another city in a single project while engineers can build roads that serve strategic purposes.
Trade routes will be one of the main sources of money. They will also make you gain science when the other civ knows technology you don't or culture for civics and will gain tourism and spread religion like in civ 5. But even internal trade routes will be money-based (like international trade route in civ 5 and 6) rather than moving food (excess food is moved automatically with loss) or production (moved by engineers).

Certainly a handy place to start in terms of QoL for using the trade screen. But , I kind of like trading just to favor one player, like a good little prince. Here this wouldnt be possible. You could say it's a solution to (one specific aspect of) collusion which can be a problem for free for all games.
We could potentially allow bilateral deals too to give resources to allies, but the world market will be more convenient when you just want the best price.

Good. What do you have to do to have a strategic resource though? You can buy it. Are we just protecting the infrastructure around the source tiles still?
You accumulate them each turn if you have a district exploiting the resource (a mine for minable resources for example) and you can trade them. You need to protect them from being pillaged.

So how fast is the march of history compared to military maneuvers? What does upgrading military technology look like? You emphasize military at the tactical level a lot in your details. I agree that Civ5 really misses, with how, for example, the settlement phase of play is over basically by the time classical armies can even exist. A different experience I had with the Anno Domini mod, in which warring or the implication of tile control is constant and settling happens at least for half the game, shows me that it's way way better if we have the pacing of our game allow the same thing. But it's easier said than done. Anno Domini, just like Old World, covered a certain span of history and technology and stretches it out to a full game. Civ7 covers all history.

How do we get enough time for maneuvers and decisions "colored" by a certain era to matter, while also not being bogged in that era and each era forever , in a 500+ turn game?
Obviously, if we start 10,000 years ago or 4,000 years ago and have a reasonable number of turns so games don't last forever, they'll be a disconnect between military maneuvers and the pace of them. Wars might last 20 turns which might be worth 1000 years early game, but that is something we have to live with considering it's a game. I do think it's important to emphasize more on the early game than what is done in civ 5 and 6 and let the time to use the different eras military units and progressively colonize. I think the hot and cold biomes should be hard to colonize first and then get progressively easier so there are places to colonize for a big part of the game.

What does this mean though?
The ancient era will last 3 times longer and we will have the time to have our decision affected by whether we are in the stone age, the bronze age, and the iron age which will focus on different strategic resources and military units.

Cool. What is start with 3 civics though. If they are your starting abilities, then calling them 1 or 3 doesn't mean anything? Are these mix and match by civilization? Are they three separate trees - but you already said they're wide and sparse (not filled in any one game).
Have you played civ 6? There is a civic tree parallel to the tech tree that focuses on policies and governments and has a few other things related to religion, culture, and tourism. But the first one is "Code of Law" so you're forced to research it first. I prefer it to be a wide tree (so you follow branches rather than discovering them all) that starts with 3 possible civics and keeps widening. I might have been unclear by "start/', I meant you can research any of them first not that you already have them at the beginning.

The concept needed here is for "engagement type" to be independent of "foot soldier" type. One type designates what can hold ground, advance into routed foes, and occupy a city. The other type describes combat results for different engagements.
I'm not sure what you mean.

Penalty for wide play? What about a non-belligerent separation from the empire? And , conversely, couldnt there be a stability problem not arising from any covetous loyalty to another power, but just dissatisfaction with being ruled at all? A revolutionary separation for independence (a new side in the game) ?
It's there to be more realistic, empires breaking apart happened all the time throughout history, but yes it will affect wide play, not tall play. Stability and loyalty are affected by other sources than other empires. I might not have written it, but I planned that changing a policy or a government cost loyalty in all cities which takes some time to recover. Also, low amenities will reduce loyalty and stability. And I think it would be natural to have a reduction in loyalty from the distance, so trans-oceanic colonies become less loyal with time.

Sometimes nothing is golden for anybody, though. Maybe a requirement for golden age and a cap on it?
Potentially. I mostly want to avoid a fix threshold that everybody achieves so everybody is always in a golden age.

So bonuses and the dedication conditions are the same stuff? It's not a feed in-feed out thing, it's a feedback loop?
You get 2 dedications when you're in dark age, 1 bonus and 1 dedication in normal age, and 2 bonuses in golden age. So you won't always have both at the same time (just in normal age). Also, you don't need to choose the same dedication as your bonus in normal age (though that might usually be best). Bonuses help you win. Dedications help you get a better age next era.
 

HorseshoeHermit

20% accurate as usual, Morty
Joined
Apr 5, 2013
Messages
1,447
Location
Canada
I'm not sure what you mean.
I just was rambling about modelling. Representing those different possibilities for unit types would involve separating what makes a unit a "captures cities / takes ground" type from the "is melee" type. Being melee determines what happens when you attack, depending on the defender. Then the ranged gun users would be the same kind as swords but not melee, as you want.

A city is a group of tiles that share production, food, citizens, and amenities. Other yields are shared globally. The hammers are needed to build districts and projects. I don't think that buildings make sense for an empire management game besides very important ones like wonders. Buildings are things that your people are building themselves, what's planned are the big things like districts. Production is the basic materials wood, stone, clay, sand (for concrete), etc. Strategic resources, food, and money are accumulated, the rest are not.
It's really good to see this clearly, thanks. It 's.. it's interesting too. Civ has been codifying a certain way of looking at the city, where it "harvests" and "yields up" various typed currencies for you, and they're all treated as the same from a model level, and there was only sort of an idea of a local effect versus an empire effect. If we talk about what is a city and belongs to the city, we can cleanly separate the part of the design that has to do with simulating city life (here, getting food, furnishing raw materials, being "close" to those farms and industrial sites, and living/housing the people together with amenities) so that those conditions "make sense on their own", I guess. And then systems like treasuries, research, and others go on top of that.

Implicitly, in what you already said, there is a factor of "connectedness" to a city. The thing that becomes the city's range , owing to simulated factors of travel time, perishability of supplies, and so on. There could be other things. Connectedness came up in this forum before.


You get 2 dedications when you're in dark age, 1 bonus and 1 dedication in normal age, and 2 bonuses in golden age. So you won't always have both at the same time (just in normal age). Also, you don't need to choose the same dedication as your bonus in normal age (though that might usually be best). Bonuses help you win. Dedications help you get a better age next era.
ohhkay. I didn't know that shift happened for the ages. So the constant is that you like to meet dedications because you want Golden Ages, but receiving those bonuses will never be directly in sync with the period for achieving for a dedication. In a Golden Age, it continues only if you make era scorings by the standard methods. "By greatness alone!" Nice.
I too would like never to have seen Dark/Golden swap strategies be dominant. It should be what you want from Dark, but not so much you ever want things to be Dark.
 

HorseshoeHermit

20% accurate as usual, Morty
Joined
Apr 5, 2013
Messages
1,447
Location
Canada
I've had an idea of my own for a bit, but I came to notice it fits with what you're saying here.

Settlers should be the thing that grows territory (I would say, "civilize terrain"), and that should be the only thing a Settler does. A Settler makes some land lived-in by your people. The city appears by some gently controlled function in the territory, just as you're saying the structures enabled by technology are built in the city limits.
 
Top Bottom