Idea for Religion: Holy City States

[craig123]

Here's an idea I had on another thread about how religion could be brought back to civ5 in an expansion pack. City states - such as Jerusalem, the Vatican, etc. - could found religions (instead of civs) and become holy cities that attempt to spread their religions. This could either be 'accurate' - e.g. the Vatican founding Christianity, Jerusalem founding Judaism - or random. (For cities like Mecca that are already in the game, they can be renamed )

It has already been said that city states will care about your social policies but other civs won't. The same could be true of religion (i.e. adopting their religion will make city states more friendly towards you, but other civs won't care that much). That would avoid the problem in civ4 where diplomacy was too religion-focused, and it would also stop the race to found religions. It could also lead to some interesting requests - e.g. the Vatican asking all Christian civs to join a crusade against another religion or holy city.

Discuss.

EDIT: If you are looking at this thread for the first time and don't fancy reading through all 9 (at the time of writing) pages, Col Mustard has put together an excellent summary of the best suggestions so far here.

 

[D712]

Here's an idea I had on another thread about how religion could be brought back to civ5 in an expansion pack. City states - such as Jerusalem, the Vatican, etc. - could found religions (instead of civs) and become holy cities that attempt to spread their religions. This could either be 'accurate' - e.g. the Vatican founding Christianity, Jerusalem founding Judaism - or random. (For cities like Mecca that are already in the game, they can be renamed )

It has already been said that city states will care about your social policies but other civs won't. The same could be true of religion (i.e. adopting their religion will make city states more friendly towards you, but other civs won't care that much). That would avoid the problem in civ4 where diplomacy was too religion-focused, and it would also stop the race to found religions. It could also lead to some interesting requests - e.g. the Vatican asking all Christian civs to join a crusade against another religion or holy city.

Discuss.

You beat me to it. But it was your idea
Im for this 100%!

 

[StStutter]

This is actually a great idea.

The holy cities would be able to ally with multiple civs, giving each some kind of bonus. Maybe offering some differing levels of approval (ie offering greater bonuses to those they like more).

They would be able to call holy wars on other holy cities and religions which civs could participate in to gain favour or not. One would also lose some favour by warring within their own religion (christians vs. christians).

This is one of the better ideas I've read that suggests implementing religion. This would also maintain the 'civs play to win' theory by adding the flavour through city states.

 

[craig123]

You beat me to it. But it was your idea
Im for this 100%!

Well I didn't want to let a good idea go unnoticed

This is actually a great idea.

Thanks!

 

[Stalker0]

I like it!

 

[Tomice]

Sounds promising. They could be more important city states. I'm just not sure if it would solve the "relations being mostly dependant on religions" issue.

Also, how would you simulate the spreading of religions? Should religions only give a bonus to one player? In reality, religions a re more powerful the more people belive in it.

A lot of questions are open to me...

 

[StStutter]

Sounds promising. They could be more important city states. I'm just not sure if it would solve the "relations being mostly dependant on religions" issue.

Also, how would you simulate the spreading of religions? Should religions only give a bonus to one player? In reality, religions a re more powerful the more people belive in it.

A lot of questions are open to me...

The thing is I don't think I'd mind if religions affected relations a lot. The main problem I saw in civ 4 was that the player himself was completely unaffected by the AI's religion and the disparity that this created.

 

[D712]

Sounds promising. They could be more important city states. I'm just not sure if it would solve the "relations being mostly dependant on religions" issue.

Also, how would you simulate the spreading of religions? Should religions only give a bonus to one player? In reality, religions a re more powerful the more people belive in it.

A lot of questions are open to me...

I would think that only city states can found a religion, which would be random amoung the city states. And those city states would send missionaries out. I dont think they would put in bonus' for different religions. But that would be cool. And Im sure that the Firaxis/2k team can come up with a way to program with the AI where either only a few civs care about religion that much or one of the "flavours" for civs could be "religion" and make it so that religion wouldnt be the only factor in diplomacy. Also there would (idealy) that you can switch off religion if you choose. But personally it would be really fun.

 

[nsotos]

Sounds promising. They could be more important city states. I'm just not sure if it would solve the "relations being mostly dependant on religions" issue.

Also, how would you simulate the spreading of religions? Should religions only give a bonus to one player? In reality, religions a re more powerful the more people belive in it.

A lot of questions are open to me...

Well, any civs that adopt the same religion should gain the same bonuses and advantages. However, only civs that have allied themselves with the founding city-state of that religion should be offered to adopt the religion. Interesting idea craig, hopefully this concept could be applied in an expansion pack or possibly even a mod.

 

[Johan de Witt]

How about... Religion doesn't really affect relations, but the holy city-state's quests would be dependant on religion. So for example, asking you to build a number of churches for their religion or destroy a number of infidels...

Just a thought.

 

[CTH]

I think that religion should be in the game but not as important as in Civ 4, and this sounds like a good way to implement religion in civ 5.

Could be cool if there is just a certain percentage of chance of religious city state being on the map (and therefore a specific religion). I dont think that any buildings should be connected to religion nor that any cities should have the religion. The religions should only be empire wide and only affect the relations with city states. I can see Social Policies bonuses that only work with a state religion and perhaps a wonder that gets affected by religion.

A bit off-topic, I belive that religion will come back to civ in an expansion, huge historical impact and everyone is a little bit sad that it is not represented in civ 5 (a bit through SP I guess)

 

[blacksmit049]

When the Christian civs have declared war against the Hinduist then it can be called crusades. So after Medieval and Renaissance, there should be rationalism, so religion could not be a factor anymore which depends on the culture of the civ.

Just to share my idea.

 

[kozzer]

Yeah, this is a really good idea!

 

[nsotos]

I find this to be a great idea. Adding another way to conduct diplomacy and improve relations with city-states will increase their role in the game, creating more interesting diplomatic scenarios and maybe even more gifted benefits.

 

[Mercade]

It's a really nice idea. Of course in Civ4, religions were just placeholder pictures for a single concept. There were no religious differences in terms of their effect on your population other than that no religion liked it when you supported someone else.

Bringing in holy cities and then "cruisades", or holy wars might be a tad too politically incorrect for the game. Personally I support the idea and the possibilities. Perhaps for an expansion pack.

 

[lissenber]

I`ve thought of this before (U STOLE MY IDEA!) but when i tried thinking about it couldn`t remember of any one-city states related to religions aside from The Vatican.

 

[craig123]

Sounds promising. They could be more important city states. I'm just not sure if it would solve the "relations being mostly dependant on religions" issue.

Also, how would you simulate the spreading of religions? Should religions only give a bonus to one player? In reality, religions a re more powerful the more people belive in it.

A lot of questions are open to me...

I don't see why it would affect diplomacy. The civs could be indifferent to each other's religion (just as humans were in civ4). It would only be city states that provide an incentive to attack the infidels or spread the faith. Two civs of the same religion could still fight for influence with the Holy city (just as happened in Europe) or could cooperate on a crusade.

Religions could spread along trade routes. Alternatively, when you first meet a holy city state, they could ask you to join them (for a reward). Holy cities could give a number of gold/culture each turn to every civ who is their religion - perhaps based on number of cities or population. Maybe the city state could give you a reward for every city state or civ you convert. (Just throwing ideas out here.)


@D712 - like your signature. Is that related to this thread?

 

[wapamingo]

I think this is a really great idea!

How about... Religion doesn't really affect relations, but the holy city-state's quests would be dependant on religion. So for example, asking you to build a number of churches for their religion or destroy a number of infidels...

Just a thought.

Great idea to add flavor to city-states in that the "holy city" city-states could request wars be fought or churches built -- just to build on that with more specificity:

> holy-city city state when at friendly terms could offer a new building type to civilization on the theme of churches or could even be units. These buildings would offer happiness bonus dependent on relation to said holy-city city state.
> the civilization does not adopt officially adopt religion, but being friendly with any religion is beneficial and could be interpreted as adopting said religion by its people
> civilization can be friendly to more than one holy-city city to get added bonus of buildings and etc.
> holy-city city states have a game generated like-dislike of other religions, random - this would dictate whether holy-city city state would ask for wars against other holy-city city states
> rejection of above, deteriorates relations (as per current city-state model) therefore decreasing bonus from buildings - and if relationship goes very bad it would give negative effects
> the above would push civilizations that invested (building buildings etc) into one holy-city city state religion to do as told
> this system would add interesting dynamics where civilizations could enter wars with each other as prompted by holy-city city states
> if civilization that is on friendly terms decides to conquer holy-city then massive negative effects are in play until released (can you release a city-state after conquest??)
> if a civilization that is not on friendly terms conquers holy city then those that are friendly with get negative effects until said city state is released - forces wars

Fun stuff!! I hope this can be and is done

 

[wapamingo]

And i don't think missionaries to spread faith is the right system to go.

simply when civ reached friendly or some level with holy-city, buildings in said civ are released for construction that give bonus-es - and would kind-a mean spreading of said religion... and said holy-city would request as part of missions to build these buildings.

 

[D712]

@D712 - like your signature. Is that related to this thread?

I knew you would notice, yes it is. I thought I would show my support of this idea and try to get Civ developer's attention. I really like this idea.