Idea for Religion: Holy City States

[Mannu]

And i don't think missionaries to spread faith is the right system to go.

simply when civ reached friendly or some level with holy-city, buildings in said civ are released for construction that give bonus-es - and would kind-a mean spreading of said religion... and said holy-city would request as part of missions to build these buildings.

Agree. Overall the OP has a brilliant idea (and simple) and it fits in great with the existing city-state model. Just add a new type: Religious and add the quests for it.

 

[craig123]

I knew you would notice, yes it is. I thought I would show my support of this idea and try to get Civ developer's attention. I really like this idea.

Lets start a campaign ...

 

[Mercade]

I`ve thought of this before (U STOLE MY IDEA!) but when i tried thinking about it couldn`t remember of any one-city states related to religions aside from The Vatican.

Point I suppose is selecting the most appropriate city for a religion, even if they don't have a "pope" in it to rule that particular religion. Some suggestions:

Buddhism - Lumbini, Nepal (Buddha's birthplace) or Bodhgaya, India (place of enlightenment)
Christianity - Vatican City
Hinduism - Varanasi, India
Islam - Mecca, Saudi Arabia
Judaism - Jerusalem, Israel
Mormons - Salt Lake City, USA
Shinto - Ise, Japan
Sikhism - Amritsar, India

 

[D712]

Lets start a campaign ...

We shall. I believe this might actually work.

 

[Darth Caesar]

This is one of the few ideas recomened by the fan community that I think is an absolutly great idea!!! I'm all for this!!!

 

[wapamingo]

agreed.

 

[wapamingo]

Point I suppose is selecting the most appropriate city for a religion, even if they don't have a "pope" in it to rule that particular religion. Some suggestions:

Buddhism - Lumbini, Nepal (Buddha's birthplace) or Bodhgaya, India (place of enlightenment)
Christianity - Vatican City
Hinduism - Varanasi, India
Islam - Mecca, Saudi Arabia
Judaism - Jerusalem, Israel
Mormons - Salt Lake City, USA
Shinto - Ise, Japan
Sikhism - Amritsar, India

It does not necessarily have to be tied to any specific city state as in any one given game you'd want all of the religions to be present and if you play with less than 28 city states that is not guaranteed.

IMHO, probably better just to randomly give city stated a "wonder" that they can build and become holy city.

I suppose there is no reason why not that "wonder" could not generate cash for that city state for each city that has their religious building(s). And they can use this cash to "reward" civs for "crusading" in their cause...

 

[Mercade]

That's a design consideration. The point by Lissenber was that he couldn't think of holy cities other than the vatican, so I provided him with some other examples / suggestions.

I agree that using a civ4 type random designation for a holy city could also work. Then I think you'll be stuck with just the same neutral nondescript benefit from a religion as there was in civ4.

 

[craig123]

I`ve thought of this before (U STOLE MY IDEA!) but when i tried thinking about it couldn`t remember of any one-city states related to religions aside from The Vatican.

You'll have a hard time proving that, sir!
Holy City States™. Copyright © and Registered Trademark ® of craig123. All rights reserved.

 

[theis81]

You could perhaps just make every cultural city state able to found religions and become a holy city. Founding the religion could be linked to tech development like in civIV.

 

[cicero spqr]

I love this idea. Perhaps it could be integrated with another idea about religions; schisms. maybe it could be a new action for great prophets. If you had that state religion and a great prophet was born you could use it to found a schismed religion. but you would lose favor with that city state and be open for a crusade against the heretics.

 

[D712]

You could perhaps just make every cultural city state able to found religions and become a holy city. Founding the religion could be linked to tech development like in civIV.

I dont know about that...City States should (IMO) have the religion either already with them from the start of the game, or could (in an "city state only" tech tree) research to get one. But I think the reason that Holy City States is such a good idea is because that way the real civs wont have to spend time researching different techs for different religious things. And I can imagine, say, Brussels being a holy city and telling its follower to not adopt the scientific policy (I forgot the name) or they will either be excommunicated and suffer unhappiness from its people (ALOT of unhappiness) or have a crusade launched against it.

 

[dimon]

I think this is a fantastic idea!

And just to chip in an extra argument, it would actually improve a lot on the model in Civ4 - for example, it is not only Spiritual civs that stand a chance to grab Hinduism and Buddhism. Maybe I'm too much of a "roleplayer," but it has always irked me a bit to see Isabella found Buddhism

I also like the idea that religion spreads with trade routes. Missionaries are fun and all, but in practice I think religion tends to diffuse through more... viral means (no offense )

Cheers
Jan

 

[seasnake]

Posted this same idea in the suggestions forum a while ago, still like it. I was talking about the first expansion, Art of Diplomacy, and wrote about this under religion:

A few Causes of War, such as the Crusade or Jihad, are linked to Art of Diplomacy's new religion dynamic. Religion makes its triumphant return to the Civ franchise, with six new religions: Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism, Islam, Christianity and Judaism. Art of Diplomacy adds new Religious city-states, like Vatican City or Jerusalem, who will strongly favor civilizations that share their state religion and gift them espionage points and units. Other civilizations who share your civilizations will not like or dislike you any more, however, both they and city-states will join you on Ecclesiastical Councils of the Faith.

These Faith Councils vote collectively to assign cities, create defensive pacts, excommunicate other factions, adopt a group certain social policies, divide newly discovered lands, etc. put forth but the Council Head. Councils can vote to launch Crusades against nearby civs of a different religion (civs that have adopted NO state religion cannot be a target), giving all council members a Cause of War against the target civ that ends if the Civilization adopts YOUR state religion. Civs can also vote on a Jihad, where all civs sharing that faith declare war if a civilization with a different State Religion declares war on one of its members. Especially watch those city-states here, if Christian Vatican City despises Islamic Jerusalem it may convince it's fellow Christians to Crusade against the little upstart. However, the Islamic council may vote to Jihad in response, and what started as a dispute between two city states now involves war between 5 civs and 9 city-states.

Religions are founded by researching appropriate techs, selecting the right social policies and then spending culture points. Founding a religion will let you put that Religion's Holy Place in one of your cities, where it will generate culture and increase your empire's happiness as long as you adopt the appropriate State Religion. But most important, the owner of the Holy Place will break any tie in the event of a deadlock vote in the Faith Council.

Those votes are important for another reason, because once a vote on an issue has been declared you can attempt to buy or sell votes. Buying a civs votes can be expensive, but may prove worthwhile. You can either barter a future council vote, but be wary, once you've sold it you can't get it back. If the next vote should be something that disfavors you (like assigning one of your cities to a brother in the faith) you'll have to grit your teeth and hope for the best because you'll have no say while your other "brother" will.

If a vote goes against you can defy the will of the council. However, you may wind up excommunicated for your troubles, which grants the crusade Cause of War to all of your former brothers and greatly upsets your citizens.

 

[D712]

Posted this same idea in the suggestions forum a while ago, still like it. I was talking about the first expansion, Art of Diplomacy, and wrote about this under religion:

I like most of that stuff, but I dont think that Civs should be able to found religions. And the different religions should be assigned to the actual holy lands in the real world.

 

[seasnake]

I like most of that stuff, but I dont think that Civs should be able to found religions. And the different religions should be assigned to the actual holy lands in the real world.

It'd require some serious gameplay testing, but I think founding a religion should be possible if it can be implemented without making it a "religion race." They were hugely powerful in Civ IV with the shrine and would need to be nerfed. But other than a nerfing, they should be okay.

 

[ShaqFu]

It's certainly a neat idea, and something that would make for a fantastic mod, and something that should absolutely be made.

Not to be a downer, but it'll never make it into the game, or any expansions. Sid's (and Firaxis') design philosophy has always been to let the player be the one doing Cool Things, not AI civs or non-competing entities like city-states. Something like founding/running a religion falls into that category, so it's very unlikely that you'll see city-state-controlled religions in any official games.

Still, it's a neat idea!

 

[craig123]

It's certainly a neat idea, and something that would make for a fantastic mod, and something that should absolutely be made.

Not to be a downer, but it'll never make it into the game, or any expansions. Sid's (and Firaxis') design philosophy has always been to let the player be the one doing Cool Things, not AI civs or non-competing entities like city-states. Something like founding/running a religion falls into that category, so it's very unlikely that you'll see city-state-controlled religions in any official games.

Still, it's a neat idea!

I don't see how it would detract from the player's fun. Especially if the religions are founded at the very start of the game - the player wouldn't 'miss out' on anything. There could always be the option of taking over the city - which would be very hard if it had lots of followers.

 

[wapamingo]

I don't see how it would detract from the player's fun. Especially if the religions are founded at the very start of the game - the player wouldn't 'miss out' on anything. There could always be the option of taking over the city - which would be very hard if it had lots of followers.

agreed. this way there is no rush to religion or rush for flavor religion; you get what you're surrounded with and work from there.

 

[eduhum]

You'll have a hard time proving that, sir!
Holy City StatesTM. Copyright (C) and Registered Trademark of craig123. All rights reserved.

You can do (C) as © with Alt+c, as well with ®, with r and ™ with h.
Also, I like your idea.
Plus this city-states would call for crusades to the nearby civs or city-states.