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Idea for Religion: Holy City States

Discussion in 'Civ - Ideas & Suggestions' started by craig123, Aug 13, 2010.

  1. generalwar

    generalwar Philosopher

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    That's right:thumbsup:. Now, we have to think about NON complicated benefits that HCSs would give you if you're allied or friendly with them. Any thoughts:confused:?
     
  2. Pouakai

    Pouakai It belongs in a museum. Moderator

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    If you're allied with a religious city-state, it gives you a happiness bonus if you have the same religion as them, eg. if you're allied with Jerusalem (Judaism), and your state religion is Judaism, they give you a massive happiness boost. If your state religion is, say, Christianity, and you're allied with a Judaist city-state, it gives you unhappiness.
     
  3. craig123

    craig123 Prince

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    I should think that adopting their state religion should be a requirement to become allied. As for benefits, something like 1 gold per turn in every city, 2/turn in the capital, when allied (which is similar to maritime city state benefits of 1 food/turn in all cities, 2/turn in the capital). Not sure if there should be explicit benefits for being friendly - are there benefits for being friendly with other city state types? If so, it should be analogous to maritime city states, replacing food with gold.

    Note: If gold is less valuable than food then it can be X gold/turn in every city, 2X/turn in the capital. Alternatively, 1 gold + 1 culture per turn ... or something similar.
     
  4. Pouakai

    Pouakai It belongs in a museum. Moderator

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    What happens if someone captures a religious city state? Does the holy city status remain, or is the religion wiped from the city?
     
  5. Ikael

    Ikael King

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    I think of something along these lines:

    Characteristics:

    * More unncommon than other type of city states (there will be just a few each gameplay session)

    * You can only be allied / aligned with one religious city state at the time. Just as it happens on the real life, religions tends to do not bode well with competition. Your empire is either Catholic (friend of the Vatican) or Buddhist (friend of Lhasa), but not both.

    * However, they give a Big happiness bonus if you are allied (say, a whooping +10 happiness bonus, equivalent to two different luxury resources)

    * ...and add an unhappiness penalty if you piss a religious city state off (say, -5 of empire wide unhappiness). That way you accomplish the following:

    - Religious city states will be extremely important to the stability of your empire, just as it happened on real life.

    - However, most of the religious city states will be a pain in your ass since you can only ally with one of them at the time, having to satisfy their demands, or else your empire will suffer from religious protests. That way, you will be forced to either devote a good amount of resources to appease them or you know, initiate a holy war in order to recover holy land and prevent your empire's unhappiness, kinda like China's anexation of the Tibet.

    - Buuuut since the common thing will be that several empires will be allied with one single religious state due to their rarity, attacking one religious state is basically kicking a hornet nest and even if it will solve your inmediate unhappiness problem, it is probably going to create a major ****storm... just as it happens in real life (think the whole Jerrusalem / Palestine situation).

    Also, in order to mitigate the effects of religious city states it would be cool if there would be social policies devouted to deal with them:

    * Freedom of religion. You can befriend more than one city state at the time

    * Religious caste. +150% to the happiness generated by religious city states.

    Of course, both would be mutually exclusive branches of the piety tree :goodjob: also, add in for good measure in the scientific tree:

    * Atheism. City states do not generate unhappiness in your empire.

    And to wrap everything up...

    Quests:

    Patron Saint: Build X number of monasteries in your cities.

    Closer to God: Build a Religion - oriented wonder (Sixtine chapel, Stonhege, etc).

    Lord of the choosen people: Make a certain city celebrate the "we love the king's day".

    Holy war: Wage war against other religious city state.

    Holy land: Claim for your empire a choosen natural wonder, by any means necessary.

    Pillgrimage: Transport one of your military units into one unhabited, designated hex (far, far away from your civ, that is).

    Holy relic: A nearby goodie hut contains a forgotten holy relic. Transport it back to the city state, spaceship style, in order to obtain it.

    Pacifism: Disband a number of your own military units!

    Reconciliation: Make peace with one of the civs which you are currently at war with.
     
  6. Col Mustard

    Col Mustard Chieftain

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    I like where Ikael is going with the idea. I like the social policies but I don't think that you should get unhappiness from pissing of a HCS unless you were once allied with them. I have a couple thoughts to add to list.

    Characteristics:
    *Holy City States will offer to build their place of worship(church, mosque, etc) in your cities with enough diplomacy point. For example, to be allied you need 60 points and to get a HCS to build their place of worship in one city you need say 100 points, a second city 150 points, and so on. The HCS will build in the city that it is closest to. This will give an extra happiness bonus(+1 or 2).

    *HCS should be very active diplomatically trying to get you to increase your standing with them and spread their religion.

    *If you are close a HCS and are not allied with it then you will get a small unhappiness.

    Quests:

    Barbarian Conversion: Destroy barbarians near the HCS.

    Road to Heaven: Build a Road from your capital to the HCS without going into neutral or another civs territory.

    Peaceful Conversion: The HCS gifts you a scout so that you can send it to pacify a barbarian encampment, that is instead of attacking it can take the encampment without fighting. If you don't complete the quest in a certain number of turns you lose the scout and lose points with the HCS.

    Holy Alliance: Get another Civ to become allied with the HCS.
     
  7. Pouakai

    Pouakai It belongs in a museum. Moderator

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    That could also be a contributing factor to Civil unrest / war if included, say you conquer the Bhuddist Indians, and you're empire is Catholic, then the indian cities and your cities would not get along.

    Conquered cities with a foreign religion could generate extra unhappiness when annexed
     
  8. Aussie_Lurker

    Aussie_Lurker Deity

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    Yes, those are some pretty fantastic ideas from Ikaea & from you Col. Mustard. The way I'd have it work is as follows:

    1-My first feeling is that you shouldn't necessarily have to be friends with an HCS in order to have their religion in your cities-or have it as your State Religion. At this level you should get a simple, empire-wide happiness bonus based on the number of cities that have the religion in it.

    2-As you gain in the friendship of the HCS, you can build (1) a Monastery, then (2) a Temple, then (3) a "Cathedral" (or equivalent). Each building should have its own special ability (like maybe bonus gold, culture, hammers, science or food?) as well as probably generating some kind of happiness benefit.

    3-Your friendship with an HCS will also determine how many priest specialists you can have in each city.

    4-When you ally with an HCS, you get to build that religion's shrine (assuming you also have a great prophet) outside one of your cities (like a Manufactory etc). This gives you a gold bonus (similar to what craig123 suggested above perhaps), & a small diplomatic bonus with all other civs who share your the same State Religion as that HCS (but with a small diplomatic penalty for anyone in an opposing religion-depending on your Piety settings).

    5-Great Prophets can be generated from certain buildings & specialist settings, & they can be used to build the Shrine, give you a Golden Age or allow you to acquire a policy from the Piety or Tradition Branches at no cost.

    6-Spreading religions to other cities will cost culture, with the cost being modified by a variety of factors.

    7-Have nothing more to offer on Quests, as I reckon Ikaea summed it up pretty neatly. The only thing I might add is the Quest of "Holy Inquisition", where you have to eliminate a foreign religion from X numbers of cities.

    Aussie.
     
  9. craig123

    craig123 Prince

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    Some really good thoughts Ikael, Col Mustard and Aussie. :goodjob:

    Discussing the effects of religion raises an interesting question: How important should religion be? If it's effects are small enough players will probably just ignore religion. If they are too large, religion will start to dominate the game (like it dominated diplomacy in civ4). The difficulty will be balancing so that it is beneficial to persue religion but not so powerful that it determines whether you win or lose.
     
  10. Col Mustard

    Col Mustard Chieftain

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    Holy City States (HCS):
    I compiled some of the ideas that I thought best and tried to stay in line with the above quote.The following ideas are taken for various posters in this thread: craig123, Aussie_Lurker, and Ikael to name a few.

    City State Names: These the Potential City Names, others can be added when the mod is sorted. These names and religious wonders are straight from cIV and the city state names are just the place where the religious wonder is or near. The wonder bonuses are a key tenet of each faith that I found in my wikipedia search.
    Spoiler :
    Format: religion(city state name) – Religious Wonder – wonder bonus
    Buddhism (Bodh Gaya) - The Mahabodhi - The Noble Eightfold Path (science bonus, production bonus).
    Confucianism (Qufu) - The Kong Miao - Li (culture bonus, reduced corruption)
    Hinduism (Benaras) - The Kashi Wishwanath - Dharma (reduced war wariness, production bonus)
    Taoism (Tai'an) - The Dai Miao - Tao Te Ching (reduced corruption, city defense bonus)
    Judaism (Jerusalem) - The Temple of Solomon - Torah (population growth bonus, culture bonus)
    Christianity (Bethlehem) - The Church of the Nativity - New Testament (happiness bonus, population growth bonus)
    Islam (Mecca) - The Masjid Al-Haram - Qur’an (science bonus, attack bonus vs. civs hostile to Mecca)

    Characteristics:
    Spoiler :
    • HCSs start from 4000BC
    • More uncommon than other type of city states (there will be just a few each game)
    • HCS should be very active diplomatically trying to get you and other civs to increase your standing with them and spread their religion.
    • If you are close a HCS and are not allied with it, then you will get a small unhappiness.
    • The basic of the holy city state (HCS) is that the city state will convert your gold into happiness and culture for your civ. So depending on your diplomatic points with the HCS, an amount of gold per turn will be requested by the HCS or you will lose points with the HCS at an increased rate.
    • You can only be allied / aligned with one religious city state at the time. Just as it happens on the real life, religions tend to not bode well with competition. Your empire is either Catholic (friend of the Vatican) or Buddhist (friend of Lhasa), but not both.
    • However, they give a big happiness bonus if you are allied (say, a whooping +10 happiness bonus, equivalent to two different luxury resources) and an unhappiness penalty if you piss a religious city state off that you were once allied with(say, -5 of empire wide unhappiness). That way you accomplish the following:
    - Once allied a Religious city state will be extremely important to the stability of your empire, just as it happened on real life.
    - However, most of the religious city states will be a pain in your ass since you can only ally with one of them at the time, having to satisfy their demands, or else your empire will suffer from religious protests. That way, you will be forced to either devote a good amount of resources to appease them or you know, initiate a holy war in order to recover holy land and prevent your empire's unhappiness.
    - But since the common thing will be that several empires will be allied with one single religious state due to their rarity, attacking one religious state is basically kicking a hornet nest and even if it will solve your immediate unhappiness problem, it is probably going to create a major problem for you.
    • The HCS will ask to build a missionary in your capital when you are neutral to them. If you refuse they may be become hostile to you, but if you accept get some diplomacy points with them and some happiness.
    • Holy City States will offer to build their place of worship (church, mosque, etc) in the city of your choosing with enough diplomacy points. For example, to be allied you need 60 points and to get a HCS to build their place of worship in one city you need say 100 points, a second city 150 points, and so on. This building will give an extra happiness bonus and replace the temple if there is one but requires more maintenance.
    • For every five places of worship you let the HCS build, they will want to upgrade a place of worship to a high place of worship (High church, High mosque, etc) in the city of your choosing. These high places of worship will increase the gold and culture in the city and increase the chance of a Great Religious Leader appearing but will require more maintenance.
    • Great Religious Leaders can start a golden age, be sent a HCS to increase your diplomacy points with them, or build the HCS’s Religious wonder on a tile. There is only one Religious wonder per HCS and can only be built by one civ per game. Religious wonders will require maintenance.
    • If your diplomacy points with a HCS falls below the required level to get a building or wonder you get no culture or happiness bonus from that building or wonder until you get the diplomacy points back up to the required level.
    • Holy city states will not care if you attack another civ it is friendly with. It will care if you destroy the religious buildings that it allows civ to have in their cities. If you destroy their Religious wonder they will be hostile to you for the rest of the game no matter what.
    • If a holy city state is attacked by a hostile or neutral civ then all its known friendly, allied, and other neutral civs will get a quest to defend it. Those that help defend the holy city state should receive a nice bonus in culture, or happiness and diplomacy points with the city state. The civ that attacked the holy city state will not be able to improve its status from hostile with that holy city state for a long time if the attack is stopped. If the attacking civ succeeds in capturing city state then the base bonuses for that holy city state are applied to that civ and no others but they can’t build the religious building or the wonder.
    • If an allied civ to a holy city state wants the holy city state then there should be an option for the holy city state to peacefully join the civ. This will take a lot of work to get to the point that the city state want to join your civ. I'm thinking that you have to do everything that it asks for a long period of time (500-1000 years?) and not be friendly with civ and city states that it doesn’t like. If you annex a holy city state peacefully other civs will not like it but it wouldn't cause a liberation war. If the allied civ succeeds in annexing city state then the building bonuses for that holy city state are applied to the civ but they can’t build more religious buildings or the religious wonder if they haven't already. If they have built the religious wonder then it becomes inactive when the holy city state is annexed. Annexing the city state remove the gold per turn requirement to keep the bonuses and no other civ gets bonuses from its religious buildings.
    • If an allied civ tries to take the holy city state, the allied civ (if there is one) and other friendly civ will be asked to defend the city state. If the attacking civ is defeated the city state will be hostile to the civ for a time. If the attacking civ succeeds in capturing city state then the bonuses for that holy city state are applied to the civ but they can’t build more religious buildings or the wonder.
    • There could be a way to capture and then release the holy city state. If you annexed the HCS then you can release it with only reduced diplomacy points. If you were allied and took the HCS without permission, the HCS will be neutral to you on release. If you where hostile or neutral to the civ and took the HCS, the HCS will neutral to your civ.
    • Once you have one high places of worship, Inquisitions may remove another religion from a city. This will remove all buildings from that HCS in that city. This will cost gold, create unhappiness in other city in your empire that have the same religion, and make the HCS hostile to you. Also, your population will decrease one point in that city for each religious building removed. So if you have the place of worship and high place of worship in a city and you start an inquisition in that city you will lose two population points.
    • If a HCS is hostile to you, it can be pacified with money and allowing it to set up a missionary in your capital.
    • If you are removing a rival religion in an inquisition to your allied HCS you will get diplomacy points.

    Social Policy Tree Changes:
    Spoiler :
    Also, in order to mitigate the effects of religious city states it would be cool if there would be social policies devoted to deal with them:
    * Freedom of religion - You can ally with more than one city state at the time but -50% happiness from any religion.
    * Religious caste - +150% to the happiness generated by religious city states.
    Of course, both would be mutually exclusive branches of the piety tree also, add in for good measure in the scientific tree:
    Secularism - HCSs generate less unhappiness in your empire but also less happiness and culture.
    Atheism –Removal of all religions in your empire for a science bonus.

    Quests:
    Spoiler :
    Patron Saint: Build X number of monasteries in your cities.
    Closer to God: Build the HCS’s Religious wonder.
    Lord of the chosen people: Make a certain city celebrate the "we love the king's day".
    Holy war: Wage war against other religious city state.
    Holy land: Claim for your empire a chosen natural wonder, by any means necessary.
    Pilgrimage: Transport one of your military units into one uninhabited, designated hex (far, far away from your civ, that is).
    Holy relic: A nearby goodie hut contains a forgotten holy relic. Transport it back to the city state, spaceship style, in order to obtain it.
    Pacifism: Disband a number of your own military units!
    Reconciliation: Make peace with one of the civs which you are currently at war with
    Barbarian Conversion: Destroy barbarians near the HCS.
    Road to Heaven: Build a Road from your capital to the HCS without going into neutral or another civs territory.
    Peaceful Conversion: The HCS gifts you a scout so that you can send it to pacify a barbarian encampment, that is instead of attacking it can take the encampment without fighting. If you don't complete the quest in a certain number of turns you lose the scout and lose points with the HCS.
    Holy Alliance: Get another Civ to become allied with the HCS.
    By the Sword: Take a city near the HCS that is hostile to the HCS
    Righteous Inquisition: Remove all other religions from your cities
    Peace on Earth: Get two civs to stop fighting

    Gameplay options:
    Spoiler :
    Pick the number of Religious City States (up to the max city states allowed on the map size)
    Toggle always peaceful religions – HCSs will not try to destroy one another
    Toggle always warring religions – HCSs will always try to destroy one another


    In summary:
    HCSs start from 4000BC
    No new buildings that you have to construct (the city states build in your cities based on diplomacy points)
    Great Religious Leaders
    One Religious wonder per HCS
    Inquisitions (with a high place of worship)
    Removal of religions (with social policies)
    Allows for annexing of a HCS
    Allows for the release of a HCS after capture
    Creates many religious quests
    Adds several start conditions for a variety of gameplay

    I think I got everything relatively balanced, easy to use, and not too complicated but if you think something is off let me know.
     
  11. rogue131

    rogue131 Byzantine Historian

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    Sorry if this has already been said, but I don't feel like going through the whole thing. :deadhorse:.

    But what if there was a religious slider or something. When I found Christianity in Civ 4, I knew that there was a turbeleunt period known as Reformation where Protestants and Roman Catholics bleed Europe over differences. Same with Orthodox and other Jews. Why not be able to determine how aggressive the faith is? Also have the opportunity to split the faith.

    This sounds complicated, but take this example: You found Christianity in Rome, right. You spread it around the world, got a lot of followers. Then someone who has been on the liberal end of the religion slider is gifted with Protestantism, changing the name of their religion and adding different bonus and effects, including immediate :mad: with Roman Catholics.

    Does this make sense? It is probably way too complicated to pull off though. The city states would be pefect! Also, they need to add Shinto, Zorastrian, Sikh and Janism to the list.
     
  12. craig123

    craig123 Prince

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    Bravo, Col Mustard! Nice work! :crazyeye: :goodjob:

    A couple of initial thoughts:

    This idea is very interesting. Has it been mentionned already? (I don't remember reading it.) Presumably it would be, say, 1 gold/turn in exchange in for 1 culture/turn + 1 happiness to begin with, and then increasing as the game goes on (depending on number of cities or population?). Towards the end of the game, maybe it would be 10 gold/turn in exchange for 30 culture/turn + 10 happiness if allied. In other words, the longer the relationship lasts and the more influence points accumulated, the better the terms of the deal.

    Can the religious wonder be built by any civ? I assume you would have to be allied or friendly to build it. If one civ is allied with a HCS can another civ who is friendly build the wonder? Would that affect diplomacy?

    EDIT: Col Mustard, I have put a link to your post at the start of the thread. I thought it would be a good place to start for anyone who doesn't want to read though all 170 posts. Hope you don't mind. :D
     
  13. craig123

    craig123 Prince

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    The idea of religions splitting has been discussed (I don't blame you for not reading the whole thread ;)). While in theory it's a good idea - and fairly realistic - I think most people were of the opinion it would just end up being over-complicated. I think that adding religion is a prime example of the KISS (keep it simple, stupid) principle.

    As to whether the religions you stated should be included, I'll leave that up to Col Mustard. I assume he chose the "top 7" religions as there were 7 religions in civ4 - and considering you'd probably never have more than 7 religions in any one game, adding more than 7 (and designing wonders etc. for them) would be unnecessary work for the designers. It's probably a matter of opinion what the "top 7" religions should be though. :)
     
  14. rogue131

    rogue131 Byzantine Historian

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    And I agree it is most likely exceedingly difficult to have religions divide mid game. Well for the very least we should get City states, which could go independent of your empire upon founding. The AI or maybe a human player in MP could take over a city state?

    The top religions they chose so far are pretty all encompassing, just trying to my nose into adding a few more.:crazyeye:
     
  15. Keroro

    Keroro Dororo: Ninja Frog

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    I really like the ideas that have been suggested here, they would make a very cool addition to the whole City State idea.

    Something that bothers me a bit: civ is a worldwide game that goes right back to 4000BC. The religions that Col Mustard lists don't include anything from Africa or America. There are two that are fairly specific to China, two that started in India, and three from the middle east (which admittedly have spread well). There's something about the Aztecs having to worship Allah in order to get religious bonuses that bothers me! What about the Iroquois, Inca, Zulu states? It also seems to ignore older polytheistic and pagan modes of worship. What about the Egyptian, Greek, Roman, Celtic, Germanic, Scandanavian pantheions? I'd argue that the list of possible religions could be expanded substantially, on the assumption that not all religions will always make an appearance in every game?

    All in all, it's pretty good as a basic KISS mechanism, which is good as a start. I'm sure that if religious city states were brought in as a game mechnism then someone would pretty quickly make a mod with extra religions anyway. ;)
     
  16. craig123

    craig123 Prince

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    I understand your concerns, Keroro. There seems to be three possible solutions:

    1. Include every civilization's religion in the game (with only a few appearing each game)
    2. Change the list so it's more representative of different continents and eras.
    3. Leave things as they are on the basis that these religions are the most well-known.

    Personally I would tend to lean towards number 3. The danger is that, in trying to be more representative, you end up with religions that no one has ever heard of. I agree it would be weird having the Aztecs worship Allah but that could happen anyway (since starting locations are random). I think that having a few religions that people recognise is the least-worst option.
     
  17. Col Mustard

    Col Mustard Chieftain

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    Thanks craig123 and to answer your questions, the idea about gold/turn is one of many ideas I thought up as I compiled that summary. I was trying to think of some way to show that the people gives money to a religion and in return people get a place to worship. In game, I was thinking the civ should pay the HCS for the religious buildings and the HCS give happiness and culture to the people in return. Basically its like maintenance gold for the buildings that are in your cities but the gold goes to the HCS and affects diplomacy with the HCS too. I linked the gold/turn to diplomacy points with the HCS because thats how the building are built in your cities.

    As for religious wonders, they can only be built by a civ with massive diplomacy points with the HCS and has a Great Religious Leader. If you get a Great Religious Leader but don't have enough diplomacy points with a HCS then you cant build the religious wonder from the HCS. When you have enough diplomacy points, the HCS will give you a quest to build their religious wonder.

    rogue131, as cool as it sounds splitting of a religion midgame would overly complicated, maybe it can be worked on when the main portion of the mod is done. If you can think of a good, simple way to make it work I'm sure we can add it in. As for the other religions, I think they should be in too but to keep the first release of the mod simple I thought we should stick with the cIV religions.

    I like your idea of determining how the HCS will wants to spread its religion. There could be several ways: peacefully, by war, or passively. For each HCS, the primary way it spreads its religion would be picked at the start. There could be two types of each HCS: fundamentalist and liberal. The fundamentalist HCSs wont allow other religions in the same city, and be more aggressive. The liberal HCSs will allow other religions to be in the same city and be more peaceful. Which type a HCS is will be determined at the start of the game.

    Keroro, I understand what you are saying but as ive said for simplicity of the first release of the HCSs the cIV 7 religions will work fine as we are current focusing on how the religions affect the game. I hope other modder will create extra religions to be added as HCS once we get the basic mod complete.
     
  18. Keroro

    Keroro Dororo: Ninja Frog

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    Any civ game only really gets going when the mods start coming out. ;) I think you're going the right direction with this, and as you say people will mod in whatever religions suit their purposes. I hope they go ahead and do this at some point, I'm certain it would be well used.

    ^ Sorry to bump this question up, but I was wondering this too. What happens on conquest. And this prompts a thought:

    Quest:
    Free the Holy land: Re-take the Holy City and liberate it to be a City State once more (this quest can only be triggered if the Holy City has already been conquered by another civ).
     
  19. craig123

    craig123 Prince

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    Just to pick up on this point, I don't think we need fundamentalist and liberal types - it could probably be tied to the existing Friendly, Neutral, Hostile and Irrational. So Friendly would correspond to your Liberal, Hostile to Fundamentalist, Neutral would be in between, and Irrational would be...well, Irrational.

    I assume you mean conquered by someone of a different religion? I'm not sure what's been said before, but I would think that the religion stays in the game (i.e. the city is still holy) but it can no longer spread; anyone who shares that religion should get an unhappiness penalty until it's liberated.

    The quest to liberate it sound like a good idea, but who would give the quest? Perhaps a Friendly HCS? Perhaps a non-religious city state?
     
  20. rogue131

    rogue131 Byzantine Historian

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    I would love to see hundreds of religions, encompassing many regions. But honestly, I feel that's a bit heavy. Unless you consolidate, such as in the Americas have two different ones: Great Spirit and War Gods. Africa have two: Egyptian and Tribal god faiths. Ummm, Greece and Rome, call it Mythology. Middle East: Christian, Islam, Judaism. Far East: Hindu, Shinto, Buddha, Taoist, Confucious. Other than that, I'm not sure. But it does lay the possibility of overload.

    Sorry to re-address an addressed topic.
     

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