Idea to improve Council of Esus

[Bad Player]

My idea is that anyone with council of Esus state religion AND one shadow mana can cast a spell that doubles all diplomatic penalties against one player. For example, instead of the Bannor giving a -1 diplo penalty against the malakim for close borders, they give a -2 diplo penalty. And double all other penalties.

It would have to be applied automatically each turn (maybe through the same mechanism that the constellations work).


This would fit thematically with the council of Esus since it is useful, sneaky and is encouraging others to war. The shadow mana requirement is a slight but thematic nerf.

 

[akatosh]

The most interesting implementation of Esus mechanics I've seen is from Rystic's Tweakmod. There, CoE's effects are tied to the crime rate, a mechanic that doesn't do much of anything at the moment. IIRC recon units with Esus religion can start with free assassin-related promotions, like bounty hunter, mobility, sinister, etc., based on how high the crime rate is.

 

[Bad Player]

Can you get the Esus religion on a unit without actually having CoE as your state religion (ie just having CoE in the city but not your state religion)? That doesn't make CoE any better as a state religion IMO (which is the problem as I see it).

 

[Calavente]

1) yes you can
(get the religion on a unit even if not state religion)
2) then you are right.

however I remember a mod (rife? or tweakmod?) where having COE in city had chances to give "poisoned" promotion to units built by city, and damage them on the built-turn.. unless you were of the CoE state religion
further, many mods ask that you have CoE as state religion to build Nightwatch and Shadowriders.
But Shadowriders already need Warmounts .. so you almost never want them.
IMO nightwatch would need a redesign to make CoE worthwhile.
Or shadowriders could be put at stirrups.. so CoE civs could get a tierIV unit when other civs are limited to tierIII... could be worth it. especially if they leave your civilization if you switch religion.

 

[A Moon]

I think it was Wildmana / Master of Mana that made that change, Calavente.

My only comment on this suggestion is that it doesn't help CoE in multiplayer, where it really needs help the most.

 

[BobCW]

CoE has two interrelated issues:


* It doesn't have very many toys.

* All of its best toys sans-Gibbon don't require you to actually follow the religion.


Your suggestion sounds kind of weak, tbh. Diplo just doesn't matter much with the FFH AI, and is useless against humans.

 

[Bad Player]

The diplomatic relationship (+/- x) doesn't affect much whether the AI will declare war on another civ in FFH2? I'm asking because I'm not sure - I just made the assumption that diplo penalties in FFH2 increase the risk of war significantly.

I guess it's sort of the opposite of Trust which is a Tier 3 spell (granting +4 diplo).

 

[BobCW]

"Trust" is widely considered to be the weakest spell in the game.


Diplo doesn't matter much for the following reasons:

* AI declare with much greater frequency than their BTS counterparts, due to most personalities being much more aggressive.

* Being declared war on doesn't matter much anyway by the mid-game, because you can halt any and all AI stacks in their place almost indefinitely just by constantly hammering them with some combination of movement-slowing and collateral spells.

* You're going to have to fight every AI sooner or later anyway, unless you're going for cultural victory- they'll automatically declare on you once you start the Tower of Mastery or final Altar piece.

* It's much easier to conquer civs and get captured cities up & productive in FFH than BTS, so there isn't much reason to bother playing nice anyway once you can defend yourself- and by the time you can have Esus toys, you should be able to defend yourself.

* Units the AI wastes attacking other AI are units you aren't getting to slaughter for exp.

* Secret AI peace / war bonuses with each other will mostly invalidate the spell anyway.

* Like half the FFH community now plays MP almost exclusively, where the spell obviously will have no effect.

 

[Bad Player]

Ok those are good points. :/